Les Baer 1911's

[Mata-Leão]

I have never had the opportunity to shoot one, only hold one.

My buddy had purchased a Kimber TLE with a Rail and it was a downright JOY to shoot. I really liked that pistol. This leads me to believe that a Les Baer would spoil me for life on a 1911. I understand that Kimber and Les Baer should not be spoken about in the same sentence (so says certain 1911 gurus) but "baer" with me on this one.

Any experiences with Les Baer? Another company comparable?

While browsing around, I located this Les Baer HC-40 that has an 18+1 capacity for 40S&W. :eek::eek::eek: The second picture shows how gorgeous this pistol is.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/Lesbaerhc40.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/LBHC40.jpg


Just for media pleasure, here is the Kimber:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/kimbertle.jpg

[Local Talent]

No first hand experience of LB either. The Kimbers I shot were tight guns, but they're production. As you recognize, a Baer is a semi-custom piece, and therefore in another league. I shudder trying to imagine how much one would cost in the land of $1,300 Glocks! :eek:

[Mata-Leão]

No first hand experience of LB either. The Kimbers I shot were tight guns, but they're production. As you recognize, a Baer is a semi-custom piece, and therefore in another league. I shudder trying to imagine how much one would cost in the land of $1,300 Glocks! :eek:

Haha, the guy that owns the local gym in my town was recently telling me that he got a 'great' price of $1200 on his Glock 19. If I ever paid $1200 for a Glock, it would be because it had an $800 instant rebate coupon that was redeemable in Gold Bullion.

So, I might be able to get a Les Baer 1911 HERE for one of my kidneys.

Remington Golden Saber 9mm +P (25 rounds) costs 30,800 colones. That is $52.92 - only because AT THE MOMENT the dollar is strong here. Not too many months ago, that price WAS $64 dollars. Wouldn't surprise me if people stopped selling crack and started selling ammunition. :mad:

[Local Talent]

I'll remind myself to read this again everytime I think we have it bad stateside. Between the recession and the gun/ammo craze that started right before the elections, price and availability have been a big pb...

If you're inclined to dream a bit about quality 1911s, I would recommend a visit to Ed Brown and Bill Wilson's sites. Their guns are a little more polished than Baer's. As for full-customs ($3-5K here) from masters such as Chuck Rogers, they are positively drool-inducing.

[Mata-Leão]

:omg:Wilson Combat:omg:

Funny, I had completely forgotten about Wilson Combat 1911's. My buddy that had the Kimber TLE was constantly saying he wanted to send his Kimber off to Wilson Combat to get "Wilsonized" - Armor-Tuff coated. I was not aware that Wilson Combat was completely hand built and fitted.

I even purchased a dvd years ago by Bill Wilson called, 'House Clearing and Cornering Techniques.'

I also checked out the Chuck Rogers page with his customizations. Some of them very cool. But Wilson Combat has my heart.

Oh yeah, I am still laughing at the fact you mentioned Lorcin in another thread. Reason being, I was going to mention Llama AND Lorcin but thought maybe Lorcins 89 dollar saturday night special .25 POS was too obscure to be recognized. In Texas, years ago when almost every town had a gun store and several Pawn Shops all stocking weapons, you could bet your grandmothers dentures that you would find a Lorcin in every one of those shops.

[Mata-Leão]

By the way...dreams CAN come true. And sometimes those dreams come true in the form of 5 little miracles.

Live on Lorcin!


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/Lorcin.jpg

[Local Talent]

A New Orleans pimp's (wet) dream, maybe? ^^^ :D

Personally, and if not talking strictly carry guns, here's something more to my taste:

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=61

[flash]

Any one ever think about carrying this beast.
I doubt any one would ever need a .50 in their waist band, but it's still pretty wicked.
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/model1_50gi.shtml

[Mata-Leão]

Wow flash...that is an incredible find. 7 rounds of hella-death 50. I would be so excited to shoot that. I found a different version that sported a tactical setup. Here it is below:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/50gi_1_500_mod2_b.jpg

[Local Talent]

Yeah, the GI is an awesome gun and I looked at it long and hard.
I also looked at semi-customs (I favor Brown) and relatively exotic calibers, like the 10mm, for 1911s (my platform of choice).
But I always come back to production guns in .45 for working 1911s.

Think of the expense of having two primaries (in case one is down, in the shop, or... in custody), the price and availability of the ammo (try and find range reloads in .50, or even 10mm, for practice), the selection in duty-quality ammo (like HSTs or Rangers), and the parts availability...
Also, and it maybe a California thing (with our fires, quakes, riots, and what not), I can't help but think that a gun should be easy to maintain and feed in case of a societal breakdown (what gun forums call SHTF scenarios :)).

I don't really buy the compatibility with the rest of the team issues (since I tend to work alone and avoid companies that mandate what equipment you can use), but that could be a factor for some. No other agent could use your mags or ammo.

Finally, there's the (hotly debated on gun boards) possible difficulties in explaining such a caliber choice to a jury, in case you have to defend your actions in court.
I also doubt that many CA jurisdictions would let you put this gun down on a CCW app.
And ballistically, the gain over .45 from .50 or 10mm is not enough to make me cross the line.

So for carry guns, I feel that you're better off with run-of-the mill pieces that wouldn't break your heart to replace, or the bank find gear and ammo for.

I mentioned earlier not being a "plastic" guy. It's a generation thing and I've already invested too much in 1911 parts, mags, leather, ammo and research to change.
But when a young guy asks me what to get, I advise a Glock (or an HK like Mata-Leão's, if he's got a little more scratch) for the above reasons.

The GI .50 is a great concept, but I bet it's nothing but a range queen for most of its (few) owners, like most Desert Eagles or Grizzlys (remember those?).

And as much as I like talking "man toys", all gun/ammo selection debates can frankly be settled by, "it's the Indian, not the bow."

[usabodyguard]

I agree with local talent - a jury will be the deciding factor in your litigation, state or civil.
One day during a course many years ago, students had all brought their firearms to class, their "primary carry weapon", well one of our younger students brought out his glock 17 with a shitload of mods done to it... it looked like it should have been in the latest terminator flick. I let him know his "baby" as he called it, was only going to get him into trouble god forbid if he ever had to use it. A good defense attorney will dissect the gun and label you as a psycho gun freak out to kill someone.

Why have the odds stacked against you even more? You’re already in the position of potentially taking someone's life... and if your gun is all "pimped", it could be implied you took this profession to do just that - shoot somoene!
:eek:

Other than a good set of night sights, maybe some non-slip grips, I would leave it factory!

Your carry weapon should be a good utility gun... not some prized show-piece.

But that's just my $.02
:rant:

[Local Talent]

Not to mention that if one gets a $600 Glock, $800 HK, or $1,000 (decent) 1911 and passes on a $2,895 GI .50 (or other outrageous toy), that leaves a lot of dough to spend on stuff as useful for the job as range time or training.
A gun's a gun (well, maybe not a Lorcin :D).

Of course, I've run into guys who carry Wilsons and still travel to the best gunfighting classes, etc., but I think they're a minority. Most of us are unfortunately working stiffs...

[flash]

I agree totally with you talent. My first work gun will be a .40 glock or some time. because it's easy to maintain, good sized, and ammo is easy to get.
I like what you said about explaining a .50 to a jury. "Well it seemed like a good idea at the time" doesn't cut it. Or the ever popular "What had happened was..."

I like the idea of team capatability, but is it really worth it in the EP world? Where you aren't firing a lot of rounds, and would need to borrow a magazine from a buddy. I can see why we do it in the military, or on a PSD, but it seems too impractical while rolling around LA.

[Local Talent]

I like the idea of team capatability, but is it really worth it in the EP world? Where you aren't firing a lot of rounds, and would need to borrow a magazine from a buddy. I can see why we do it in the military, or on a PSD, but it seems too impractical while rolling around LA.
I'm with you. I know at least one guy who drops "hints" to his teammates that carrying what he does would be a good idea, but he's just a control freak.
In reality, it's an LE or military concern, as you rightly point out.

For the domestic stuff I do, with low to moderate risk level, the chances of having to fire even one round are very low, let's face it. A lot of work is even done unarmed. So running out of ammo or having to swap equipment... fat chance.
In the sandbox or in South America, and/or part of large details, I'd probably give the issue at least some consideration.

[Mata-Leão]

Lots of really wonderful points from all of you guys. :)

Very important point about the legal liability of having a .50 FOR SURE. Having a .50 would almost be the same as explaining to the court as to "why" you chose to put a small tight grouping within forehead of the assailant.

"Well Your Honor, 'aim small shoot small', and he had this quaint little mole right above the bridge of his nose...well, as we say in EP, shoot to kill, not to stop, right??"

I am pretty sure I could coerce the Judge and Jury to understand that carrying a sawed off Remington 700 .308 was job specific to EP work.

I personally would never own a weapon that did not have wide ammo availability. For instance, I sold my HK USP 40S&W in Texas before moving here only to pick up the same HK in 45acp. I actually was looking for an HK USP 9mm when I got here but didn't find it. 40S&W here is highly sparse.

Another thing to me that is very important is mag capacity. I know this is truly a personal preference. Guys who used to carry a revolver would always preach that "it only takes one" and that their weapon is void of malfunction/jamming. I appreciate all schools of thought, but it still comes down to my preference of the highest mag capacity for my chosen weapon and caliber. Even though, it is my goal to NOT be in a scenario that requires me to discharge my weapon - I could live my life lugging around 13 rounds of 230 grain 45 acp for no reason.

I am also not into the idea of owning a weapon for novelty purposes. Why? Uhh, cause, I don't have that much money!:D If all the money in the world was in my wallet, then all the guns in the world would be in my safe. Starting with a complete line of Lorcin and ending with a few of the more stunning models from Hi-Point.

VEERRY interesting you mentioned Grizzly Local Talent! Haha, that brought some memories back for sure. I had a 1992 Gun Digest that had a Grizzly in it. I remember looking at that Grizzly and the Wildey Auto. Anytime I have mentioned Wildey to anyone, they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. But, I THINK that the Wildey Pistol was possibly used in the movie "The Hard Way" with Michael J. Fox and James Woods. The bad guy in the movie had a black man in the projects custom make him a gun. When they showed it, I think it was a Wildey. More than likely, everyone on this forum does their damndest to identify the weapon you see on a movie. Here is a pic of that Wildey in .475 caliber:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/wildey475.jpg

No post from me would be proper without some pictures.

I recently imported a Sig Sauer p226 w/ rails in 9mm. I prefer HK and Sig for almost any application. I will post some Sports-Illustrated-Like photos of my sig in some sexy positions later...

I would dearly love to have a Sig p232 .380 for off duty carry situations where I don't have to wear a fat womans mu-mu to conceal this HK USP. If you have ever held one and tried one on in a holster, you should know what I am talking about. Super concealable/comfortable and very ergonomic for my hands.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/sigp232.jpg


I don't have time to proofread my post - Ciao

[flash]

lol, sawed of remington. That would be cool to see tucked up under some guys suit coat.
I would love to have a .40 Sig, but they are too expensive, same with Kimbers. I fell in love with the new kimber SIS. But i can't spend $1800 + on a pistol right now.
Revolvers...I always chuckle to myself. It just seems so old fashioned, and like the person isn't considering too many diferent posibilities. With one reload of a revolver, you have 12 rounds. While you have more in one 9mm magazine. I realized that doing EP work, you'll probably never fire at all, but IF you do have to, don't you want enough ammo for the worst case scenario?

[Local Talent]

Another to me that is very important is mag capacity. I know this is truly a personal preference. Guys who used to carry a revolver would always preach that "it only takes on" and that their weapon is void of malfunction/jamming.
Ah, the Great Capacity Debate, my old friend... :)

My favorite handguns are 1911s and wheelguns, so it's obviously not an obsession for me. There's a statistic out there that says that in about 90% of lawful firearm use by civilians in the U.S. (including cops and private security), the weapon isn't even fired. The mere presence or display of it ends the confrontation.
And in those cases where firing is necessary, an FBI report has shown that in an overwhelming majority, only 2 or 3 rounds were expanded on average.

Now if I was in LE, and liable to get into protracted gun battles (see L.A. gangs, for ex.), I would disregard those numbers. My agency would issue me a hi-cap anyway, and I'd have to make do with a 9mm or .40 most of the time.

But like you guys, I'm in EP, where not only the possibility of a shooting is relatively remote, but my primary role is to cover and evacuate. So shooting 12-15 times at adversaries is very unlikely, and if I ever do, it will probably from behind cover where I'll be able to reload.

Bear in mind that my clients have so far been mostly celebs or corporate types in very anti-gun environments (which sometimes included the principals themselves), not government officials or mob bosses...
As I said somewhere else, on a Mid-Eastern or South-American PSD, I'd sing another tune.

And I'm all for being prepared for the worst, that's what we get paid for after all, but you have to have priorities.
A lot of guys I see think nothing of showing up for work improperly dressed, sleepy or hung-over, without having read instructions sent to them or attended briefings, etc.
That makes me think that they don't really take the threat seriously at all, that the gun will be their go-to piece of kit instead of a last resort, and that the capacity argument is really about bragging rights, not preparedness. ;)

Please note that I'm talking from experience, not about the present company, in particular Mata-Leão, who makes very sensible choices given his AO.

Disclosure: I transitioned from revolvers to 1911s years ago when doing uniformed work, due to constant ribbing from guys who couldn't hit a B-27 at 20' with their Berettas and G17s. The cocked-and-locked .45 that appeared in my exposed rig, if not their choice, shut them up at once.
But I still think that a revolver would be a viable weapon for a civilian CCW holder or even EP agent. The environment (training courses mandating a semi or snickering co-workers) dictated the move to an autoloader for me.

Oh, and the Wildey was also used by Bronson in Death Wish III, at the height of the great arms race launched by Eastwood and his .44 mag.

Wow, aren't them Baers tight?! :D [Attempting to recover from an off-topic rant...]

[Mata-Leão]

Flash, not to try to sway you into spending more than you care to, but, I have known a lot guys who buy what they care to afford at the moment opposed to buying exactly what they want. There seems to always be a large difference between the happiness of both persons. The guys I have known that always looked for the best deal on a gun they were 'pretty' happy with, always ended up back at the gun store eyeing:eek: what they really wanted to begin with. When in reality, sometimes to get what they wanted only costs $400 dollars more.

In your case with that $1800+ Kimber...my advice is to disregard the aforementioned paragraph! :D

But, It sure is nice to buy what you want because in the end, you are left with a constant smile and appreciation for the extra months of saving money.

-So Flash, are you probably going to get into a Glock, Sig or a 1911 when you get out or what?



Sir Local Talent...

Man, you have very informative and entertaining posts.:rolleyes:

Haha, just kidding bro, I have been wanting to compliment someone only to abruptly take it away with a smug little sarcastic smilie. Your humor matches with my personality very much.:rolleyes:

:D:D:D:D

I appreciate the fact that you keep in mind my location and atmosphere. While I am not runnin' an gunnin' at any point in my day - this country has some serious issues when it chooses. I know this not because of the local news or because of my own opinions but because of the O.I.J agents that I have in my classes.

There is serious corruption (political and law enforcement) in this country and I don't know if you guys are aware of this, but, Costa Rica is the ONLY demilitarized country in Central America. I have heard plenty of times about how a large majority of the drugs from Colombia come through Costa Rica first as a central hub. Here, they have no one to worry about. If you have spent any time in Costa Rica you would understand the lack of LE presence. Then, when you do meet a Police Officer, he has the same education AND SALARY as the guy sacking your groceries at the Mega Super (grocery store).

The O.I.J of course has a much higher standard for their agents but they are highly understaffed for the frequency of criminal activity here.

Point is, people feel very comfortable here committing and getting away with all sorts of crimes. The newspaper recently published an article that about a very strong growing community of hitmen here in CR. One report spoke of a hitman being paid 10,000 colones to carry out his directive. Guys...that is $17.18.

So, yes, I wish to carry high capacity because of my atmosphere. And I do entirely understand what you are talking about in reference to the statistics Local.

Good call on the Death Wish 3.

Speaking of revolvers, I bought my dad a Stainless Ruger Security Six .357 2" and absolutely loved it. I liked it so much that one day I was chatting with some guys in the local gun shop when a yellow Hummer pulled up and a guy had over 10 guns he was selling. He asked if I would help him lug in all these weapons. When I saw that he had a Stainless Colt King Cobra .357 4" I asked him if I could be that from him right there. He said he had no idea what to get for it and I offered him $300 dollars because it had knicks and scratches all over it. Cosmetically speaking, it was not a very pretty pistol. $300 dollars later though, I was the owner of this scratched up work of art. Wonderful pistol to shoot. Right before I came to Costa Rica I sold it for $450 at a gun show walking around the tables. Just my little exposure to revolvers made me a fan.

Local, is there a particular revolver out there that you lean towards? Maybe a nice Armscor with some Queen of Hearts themed plastic grips??


Oh yeah, Les Baer. (If I ever stayed on topic...it was an accident)

[Local Talent]

Oh yeah, Les Baer. (If I ever stayed on topic...it was an accident)
Hey, your thread, brother! :D

Local, is there a particular revolver out there that you lean towards? Maybe a nice Armscor with some Queen of Hearts themed plastic grips??
My, you do have a wicked sense of humor... :devil:

I'm partial to S&W. Not as rugged as Rugers, but more size-efficient (portable, for a given power level) and with usually much better triggers. And not as sexy as some Colts (Hmm... Python! :cool:), but with arguably stronger action and more aftermarket stuff. I hear it's hard to find a smith who'd work on a Colt, these days, and they're not even sold new anymore. They're in safes, not in that many holsters anymore. :(

I do hate the S&W lock, but there's a number of good Smiths. I think that a J-frame as a BUG is about ideal. A K or L-frame is great for duty.
I've had a 19 (2.5"), a 686 (4"), and a 649 (2"). Loved 'em.

As for $1.8 K for any Kimber... :eek: :omg: I'm pretty sure you could find a much better Baer for less (back on topic!).

[Local Talent]

Here's a pic of my old "Bodyguard", next to another BUG for scale (pun intended):

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=64

And what was probably the ultimate carry gun in its time, the ASP:

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=62

And FWIW, and at the risk of being flamed by Baer lovers, Les' guns are built extremely tight for accuracy's sake. They're bullseye-type competition guns, not really carry guns. I know that some do pack them and you'll see them in a few cops' rigs, but if you're gonna spend $$ on a 1911, it should be a Wilson for tactical use (patrol, SWAT, etc.) or a Brown for CCW (plain-clothes LE, EP, CCW, etc.). That's my read on semi-customs anyway, and I'm sticking to it, even if there's overlap among models.

And since Mata-Leão's OP asked about other options in Baer's ballpark, I'd add the SA Pro and Fusion. Both the Springfield Custom Shop and Fusion turn out guns that flirt with or exceed semi-custom standards, IMO. You wouldn't get the same name recognition as with the Big Three, or even Rock River Arms (no more 1911s from them for now) or Nighthawk, if that matters to you.

Am I bored or what?!

[Mata-Leão]

I have never owned a S&W. I have spent time with two of their semi-autos and would never desire to have one, ever, for me. On the other hand, I appreciate the revolvers very much - but for some reason, have unknowingly dodged being able to use one at the range.

Local Talent: And FWIW, and at the risk of being flamed by Baer lovers, Les' guns are built extremely tight for accuracy's sake. They're bullseye-type competition guns, not really carry guns. I know that some do pack them and you'll see them in a few cops' rigs, but if you're gonna spend $$ on a 1911, it should be a Wilson for tactical use (patrol, SWAT, etc.) or a Brown for CCW (plain-clothes LE, EP, CCW, etc.).

Many years ago on Glock Talk I was reading a group of guys bashing how Sig Sauer was put together too tight. One guy mentioned, "three grains of sand in'em and they are prone to malfunction". I am no gun smith/guru, but I would guess that the SEALs would not be carrying the P226 if this was the case. BUT, I AM aware of loose tolerances making for more reliability in lousy conditions. Just look at the AK-47.

So, anytime a weapon is built super tight for accuracy (insert Lorcin) and that weapon happens to be my pistol, I am not interested. That is because I am not shooting in competitions of course.

LT, thank you for always giving out so much information on your posts. You keep me busy looking at differing companies and wiping drool off of my keyboard.

AND, I know what all of you are thinking...
:nopics:


To maintain my normal media infected posts:

I would always be interested in owning an 8 shot .357. Awesome!
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/8shot357.jpg

and then, there was this...
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/wtf.jpg

[Local Talent]

S&W autos get no love, for some reason. Very underrated, I think.
Just out of curiosity, what was your beef with them?

The move of some of their revos toward "tactical" gives me hives, though (except when it comes to increased capacity). I think they're trying to appeal to auto-lovers and that's doomed to fail.
Call me a purist, but a wheelgun should look like this:

27

Different grips and stainless steel for carry would be the only concessions I'd make.

As far as tightness on semis is concerned, man is it a hotly debated topic on 1911 boards!

First of, I'm surprised that no Baer owner has chimed in yet (they must be looking for the perfect rope :)).
Baers are high-quality 1911s built to extreme tolerances - probably the tightest in the industry. The result is exceptional accuracy and durability. I think they're the only company recommending a 500-round break-in.

And surprisingly, the old wisdom that loose guns are more reliable can be challenged. 1911s need to run wet and lube actually stays put longer in tight-fitted weapons, while a mil-spec will be bone-dry within a week or two, I can testify to that.
Then Larry Vickers ran a function-test a while back where he filled with sand a USP, a Glock, a custom 1911, and a mil-spec 1911 - all in .45.
The USP did best (as you'll be glad to hear)- the Glock worst (I know, huh?). But the surprise to me was that the tight custom 1911 worked better than the loose one. Almost as well as the HK.
So tight is not necessarily so bad for reliability (in dirty combat conditions, anyway).

But I think that there's a real-world middle ground to find in carry guns. If you've been through a pistol course or two, you know that your hands end up tired, sweaty, and even bloody after a while there, and that kinda replicates combat conditions.
Well in that case, I guarantee you that slick brushed steel finishes, heavy springs, and slides so hard to rack that you need a perfect grip on them aren't your friends.

No one needs a 1.5" guarantee on a fighting gun (I know not all Baers have it); not when it will compromise ease of manipulation. A Brown built "right; not tight", as the company says, makes more sense to me when the practical accuracy is the same.
Now if I was tasked with making that 50 yard shot with a handgun one day... you bet I'd request a Baer. ;)

There's also a real-world amount of money one should blow on what is basically a tool, not a toy. If you can afford to put $1.6-3K in a holster... my hat's off to you.
To me, the right cost/quality/carryability compromise ended up being this (it needs a good bead blasting, still):

28

LB owners, please feel free to disagree!

[Mata-Leão]

It's 5:59am here and your post does not have the supposed pictures loading properly. :(

I have to leave momentarily and will make this a brief reply.

The 2 S&W's in question were the:

Model 6906 in 9mm
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/SW6906.jpg

and the S&W Sigma 9mm
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/SWSigma.jpg

I never had problems with the 6906's reliability. The ergonomics of the pistol flat didn't fit my hand and the trigger felt as though it had some serious travel. I was looking for that reset point to where ANYTHING PAST was that crisp *click* and then *bang* - but I don't recall walking away being pleased with finding it and felt like the pistol best suited my buddys possession and not mine. The 6906 was not bad, but I most certainly did not enjoy it at all.

OH MY GOODNESS the Sigma. That piece of gun was almost impossible for gun store owners to sell in Texas. The price on them was ridiculously competitive too. I mean, you could buy a Sigma for 300+ dollars sometimes and only un-suspecting persons were getting ahold of them. I knew that they garnered a lot of flack...and then my buddy called me up who was a rifle guy and said he had picked up this Sigma. First off, the trigger was made with flexible plastic. I mean, the trigger material was bendable. Secondly, I told him something was wrong with this pistol. The trigger was needing above 15 pounds of pull to fire. He took it to a smith that immediately said..."no, no, no, send it back to S&W." So, he sent it back to them. I am not aware of what happened after that.

I guess I could say the ergonomics of the Sigma were nice compared to the 6906.

Man, I have to bounce! (I don't have time to proofread, I hope Bufford the Giraffe steers clear of this post)

[Local Talent]

It's 5:59am here and your post does not have the supposed pictures loading properly. :(
Well, you just found out exactly how low-tech I really am... Still learning them newfangled 'puters and interwebs. :o
I hope it works, now.

As far as the S&W autos, the Sigma is about as representative of their line-up as the Mosquito is of Sig's. It's just an aberration (and abomination).
All the metal ones have the rep. of being stone cold reliable and unbreakable. CA CHP officers were very happy with the 4006s they used for years, for ex.
The M&P looks like a great polymer gun, although it doesn't have much of a track record yet.
So Smiths are often overlooked unfairly, I think.

But I hear you on the ergos - that 2X4 feel, among other things. The 645 I've held recently felt all wrong, but then I'm so used to 1911s that anything else handles like crap to me...

My very own issue with S&W is their obsession with liability. Their revos now have the infamous lock and their autos are filled with magazine disconnects, firing pin safeties, warnings, and other lawyer-happy nonsense.
I won't touch their 1911s in part because of that (and in part because of the external extractor), in spite of their excellent reputation for reliability.

I can't blame the company, mind you, but since other makers don't seem to have the same reserve... as a consumer, I take a pass.

[Lone Wolf]

Me personally I have had the opportunity to fire S&W semi Autos, as well as a wide array of other semi automatic handguns including Glocks.. I will say this up front that I am NOT a Glock fan although I recently attended a training class where the company provided weapons for the class.. they were Glock Model 19.. I was actually pretty impressed with their accuracy but still they have a certain Stigma to them for me.. I personally prefer an H&K or Sig Sauer P226... I carry a P226 here in Florida and will probably carry the same there when we are there..

[Local Talent]

Glocks are good guns like Toyotas are good cars. Cheap, reliable, available - nothing to get too exited about. Perfection? Ha! Perfect cop gun, maybe... with a NY trigger, to prevent the old "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to carry this here Glock fortay... BOOM!". :D

[Mata-Leão]

Speaking of Glocks accuracy, I was Hella impressed with the Glock 26 sub-compact 9mm. I sold mine to a buddy years ago and really feel like that was the worse 'gun-sale decision' I have ever made. (nope, I made worse decisions than that - and now am angry thinking about it...:mad:)

I think a Glock is the best semi-auto pistol for an inexperienced woman to shoot and carry - unless she has the chance to carry a hammerless revolver. Glock is always HOT - Point and Shoot. No external safeties (other than the little trigger fin), de-cockers or Beretta take down levers to worry about. But, of course, to reiterate, an inexperienced person should be surrounded by revolvers and sling shots.

LT, I remember that video from many years ago and I felt so terrible for the guy. More than likely he was more concerned with his public speaking and giving a solid presentation (with which provides nervousness for people not comfortable and experienced with public speaking) and thus not giving proper attention to the safe weapon handling protocol.

I don't know if you guys have seen it, but a recent Will Ferrell movie called "Semi-Pro" had a hilarious scene with a pistol at a card game. The gun safety displayed in that game and the reaction of everyone present during the mishap was beyond hilarious to me.


Hey Lone Wolf, what kind of holster/s do you like for your P226?

[Local Talent]

Mata-Leão, ol' buddy, good to have you back (I know you been busy)!

Here's the guy: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5769128699839414009#.
I hear you on public speaking nervousness, but the presence of a loaded firearm there and the hubris revealed by his tirade just made him look like a jackass to me. I am very impressed by the fact that he continued the lecture after shooting himself, though! :eek: :confused:
I read that he has sued the DEA for the damage to his career caused by the leak of this tape...

I sold mine to a buddy years ago and really feel like that was the worse 'gun-sale decision' I have ever made.
Don't feel bad - Glocks are a dime a dozen, although not in Costa Rica. No collector or sentimental value whatsoever... ;)

I think a Glock is the best semi-auto pistol for an inexperienced woman to shoot and carry - unless she has the chance to carry a hammerless revolver.
Yeah, a wheelgun is what I recommend to newbs way before a Glock. We take our familiarity with autos (semis) for granted, believe me. There's a reason why S&W spells it out on the gun if it can be shot w/o a mag in.
At a recent job, as I was showing our issued CZ (chamber empty, per company policy :rolleyes:) to a new agent, the guy asked me whether the gun could be fired after inserting a mag. I explained with a straight face that he had to rack the slide first, but was floored since besides the gun permit training (minimal, but still), he had served in a european country's military.
People look at autos and have often no idea how to check their condition, so revos, the original point and click devices, are my main recommendation.
But I agree that if they're going to get an auto, a Glock is the simplest.

I otherwise passed on that Will Ferrell movie, like on most of his... :p

[Lone Wolf]

I use a Level II Serpa I also have a Serpa Thigh rig as well... Nice thing is that the P226 and the P220 utilize the same holster... Sweet I kill two birds with one stone... My other weapon is IMI (Baby Eagle 40) my next purchase is going to be a H&K although they are a little pricy my belief is that they are an investment.. An investment in MY future... I also have and Carry for work a Mossberg M590A1 12 G 00buck with a 6+1 Capacity...

[Local Talent]

I also have and Carry for work a Mossberg M590A1 12 G 00buck with a 6+1 Capacity...
Sweet! I looked at the 8+1 version for a while, but I think the downsides (length and weight) aren't worth it, so I'll likely spring for the same as yours.
I'm without a SG right now and miss it, but there's a time for everything...

[Lone Wolf]

Yeah we have to have a shotgun waiver in this state to carry one.. They are company specific as well, I use mine for Jewelry transports and EP work. I actually bought it for the class I was going to take but what the hell I can use it for both... All I need for it now is a sling and shell holder for the stock or the side of it

[RONIN]

les baer 1911s are semi custom guns.. unlike kimber or springfield armory which are production guns.. although you can have both done up in there custom shops.. now ed brown or wilsons are hand built guns..

now a word of advice for everyone, it is my thoughts that spending a crap load of money on a "work" weapon.. is dumb.. now if your doing executive protection then yes go ahead and spend whatever you want on you weapon.. but my time here in the sandbox, i have seen many guys lose weapons nice weapons.. ie ed browns, wilson combats, custom colts etc.. due to bad choices of holsters..

but to get back on topic, les baer are very nice semi custom guns, and they can be made very custom if ordered that way..

[Local Talent]

I know what you're saying, RONIN, but I disagree to some extent. Baer, Brown, Wilson, Nighthawk, and maybe a few others (Rock River Arms was another one for a while, Fusion maybe) are all semi-customs in that those aren't one-man shops (Brown's workers are all family, if I'm not mistaken, but that's still a bunch of people) and they offer ready-to-sell packages, like any factory.

What separates them from the Kimbers of this world is the skill of the workforce, the attention to detail, the quality of the components, and the ability and willingness to modify the guns or add options not in the "catalogue", like a custom shop.
At one point, Brown actually turned down all requests to modify the guns and sold the line "as is", just like a high-end factory. He only recently relented.

Those semis are all high quality, but some actually consider them "production" because they carry an existing line and have distributors. Again, the quality and custom options put them in another league for me. Semi-custom = high-end production with options, if you will.

Now Les Baer is not focusing on cosmetic aspects nearly as much as the others. You'll see tool marks on the inside for example. Those are very accurate shooting tools, not exactly heirlooms or safe queens. I think that explains in part the generally lower prices. It's been a while since I've seen production numbers, but I don't know that Baer makes more guns than Wilson. Brown is definitely making the fewest.

As for the custom shops, they are much smaller operations, and rarely sell entire guns. They usually work on the customers', or get receivers and slides and build from the ground up. A much more extensive and personalized enterprise than semi-customs. They make one-off weapons. Everything is "a la carte", while you order from a "menu" in the semi-custom world.
And this explains the prices and waits.

Now to be honest, if you spend any time on 1911 forums, you'll see that there's little real consensus on all this, given the cross-overs.
Some consider Dan Wesson semi-custom, for example. It's only a 15-man shop that cranks out maybe 3,000 guns/year, and the guns are assembled and finished by hand, with slide and frames hand-lapped, and with no cheap (plastic, MIM) parts. And some custom work can also be ordered. While I think that's pushing it, DW has to be one of the, if not the, best current production 1911 in the market today, but it doesn't fully compare to Brown (that it emulates).
Production guns are usually just slapped together with only minor fitting, unlike what was done in the era after the 1911 was designed, and that explains the hiccups that modern iterations of the platform can have off the assemply line, BTW.
The success of Glock comes in great part from a design perfectly adapted to modern cost-cutting production measures. It's not a better one, just a design more in tune with its era (cheap machines/expensive labor).

Also, while Springfield does have an actual (world-class) custom shop... Kimber doesn't. The "custom" appellation is just a word stamped on some high-end models, as they have no such shop.

That other point you make about not spending too much on a tool is very valid. I hear people say, "I want the best, my life is worth it." OK. But there is such a thing as diminishing returns. That, too, is open for debate, but most people agree that a $1,500 1911 should be GTG. Beyond that price point or thereabouts (often less), nothing is really necessary. Because what is "the best"? A 5-7K full-blown custom? And are they going to get two of those for when one is in the shop?!
There's a reason why PDs issue cops Crown Vics, not MBZ 600s.
Now the requirements of one man aren't the same as a military unit or PD - we may decide to go fancy if we like, why not? But I don't know too many millionaire bodyguards... And if an HK will do the same job as a 1911, that makes one question the wisdom of semi-custom duty guns. Semis or full customs are toys that we want, not tools that we need, let's face it.

This being said, there are semis in people's holsters (lots of Wilsons, some Baers). As long as the guy doesn't cry when his baby gets scratched or thrown into the nasty locker of an evidence room for months... I'm all for it: it's a free country. :)
It is also true that on most domestic EP jobs, the guns will mostly be concealed and see little abuse. People wear Cartier or Rolex watches when a Citizen or even G-Shock will do the same thing and more, after all. There is something of a status symbol attached to the luxury stuff.

In the end, although Baers are probably the most affordable semi-customs and a great value, the reason why I wouldn't consider them for work is their philosophy. The guns are built extra-tight (too tight, some say) with only accuracy in mind. It's their trademark. I think it's great for matches, but not so desirable for a combat weapon.

[usabodyguard]

Just my .02 - if you break leather on someone and take them out while in the line of duty - ie bodyguard/EP stuff, and your gun is a "custom" be prepared to be slaughtered by a good defense attorney who will disect your gun, explaining to the jury that your weapon has been modified to hunt people (advice from a friend who is the DA in this county).... your primary carry should be as close to a stock main stream weapon as possible - not only that, if you are involved in a shooting/fatality your weapon can be siezed for quite some time, depending upon the circumstances...

I carry (CCW) a standard issue glock xx with night sights and a wrap around grip - your basic utility weapon... i dont feel the need to carry any of my custom rigs around.

Additionally, I dont like sharing my weapons cache inventory with strangers over the net, but Im always looking out for liability issues, you never know when some wackjob will use your information against you.

[Local Talent]

All good points, usabodyguard.

The one about modified weapons, reloaded ammo, etc. is often countered by internet smart-asses with: "a good shoot is a good shoot." What they fail to see is:
1. How do they know it will be? We all make mistakes.
2. That's all fine and dandy for the criminal part of the case. In civil court, anything will go.

As far as sharing personal info, especially gun stuff... You're right too, and that's why I've been mostly a lurker all these years, and why I've even pulled away from a gun forum (more and more disclosure was always requested). But then, if you wanna use a board for networking (forget pure bragging and other ego boosting), you will have to discuss stuff about yourself to show who you are to other pros and promote your business. Hard to do while remaining a closed book.
It is true, though, that detailing what we own and carry, how we go about it, and exactly how we'll use force... may help a few rookies and kill some time, but stays in cyberspace forever and could (will?) be used against us in court one not-so-fine day.
Maybe it's time for me to admit that while I post the truth... it's not necessarily the whole truth! :D

Otherwise, yeah, Glocks do make perfect sense, just like Toyotas and good girls (yawn). But who said life was supposed to? :devil2:

I must say that I'm a bit concerned by the amount of mods I made (and am planning to make) to my carry heat. A lot of it is nothing but mental masturbation. The good news is that the immense majority of us (domestic work anyway) will never use our guns for anything else than impressing our buddies at the range.

Finally, and to again reinforce your post, I read a book by a PI once who finished by saying that one could get away with almost anything... if they could only keep their BIG MOUTH SHUT! :D (Surely Sonny will agree on that!)

[SonnyPI]

Finally, and to again reinforce your post, I read a book by a PI once who finished by saying that one could get away with almost anything... if they could only keep their BIG MOUTH SHUT! :D (Surely Sonny will agree on that!)

Copy all, LT and USABODYGUARD!
Cordially, Sonny

[Local Talent]

And then sometimes a semi-custom can end up the only option left if you're allergic to plastic (:devil2:).
Case in point: if I want a new, real "Commander" (4.25" bbl 1911), with internal extractor and no firing pin in CA, it's between a Dan Wesson CBOB and an Ed Brown Kobra Carry. That's it, believe it or not. See: http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=669
And since the CBOB was discontinued in 2010 except for CA, it has become scarce and dealers have jacked up the prices to unreasonable levels... so I'm looking at Brown again, a $2,500 pistol. :eek:
I'm sure I'm not alone.

I'm having this problem of increasing costs and narrowing options with cars, BTW, as I won't touch anything that's not a domestic, V8-powered RWD. The similarities between RWD and 1911 are many, BTW, but I don't wanna stray too far off-topic with that. :)

So back to the subject at hand, a Baer for work makes more sense than the other semi-customs that are more costly for mostly cosmetic reasons. Baers are great, quality, no-nonsense guns. And all 1911 snobbery aside, a $600 gun ain't gonna cut it for duty: we need forged construction, good parts, and a serious build. If only they weren't so damn tight...

[Geo]

I agree with posting of your intell on any website. I'm a big believer on stock stuff in Ca. Not sure how many people on here have been on the other end of a lawsuit regarding deadly force. When you are involved in a critical incident in LA county whether sworn or non. The da's office responds to the scene and determines based on the totality of the circumstances whether to file charges or not. They take control of you handgun whether it be a stock or rolls royce upgrade. La county crime lab then does all their testing on your weapon. They take it apart, photos all the parts and does multiple test firing. They if your cleared you will get it back. Be prepared in civ trial to have those photos of your custom gun plastered all over a huge screen for the world to see. Then be prepared to explain all those nice mods you did to your and why. i wish Ca was different in mindset regarding guns. All the best Geo

[Local Talent]

Oh, great. There goes my idea of getting a Colt and dumping the series 80 parts... :mad:

This being said, I'll challenge anyone who's not a gunsmith to tell which parts I've replaced on my piece. And custom work doesn't necessarily mean this: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=277359. :)
I'm all for the sleeper look in cars and guns, precisely for the reason usabodyguard and Geo brought up. But sleeper also means that a lot more is going on below the surface. ;)

For those who don't know, replacing crappy and critical MIM parts like slide stop and hammer with tool steel ones is a routine thing on 1911s and I don't see how that would freak out a jury or even show on a photo. Same thing with spring upgrades to Wolff extra-power: who could tell just from looking?
Now I can see how installing a compensator, using extended mags, or porting the gun could make one look like a (gun) nut.

The one thing I'm concerned about is trigger pull. If they compare it to the factory specs and determine that you lightened it (pretty hard to do given how this even varies from gun to gun), it seems that would spell trouble. I believe that most agencies don't allow trigger jobs on their officers' weapons.
So let's say you grease your sear and hammer with Wilson Ultima-Lube or other space-age lube, and you gain 1/2 lb of trigger pull... they gonna fry you for that? Did I go too far polishing the bead blasted areas of my slide so they wouldn't be so abrasive? Know what I mean?

Well, that's one more reason to go semi-custom, then, and get a gun built right from the get-go!
Baers are looking better and better, oh wait, except that they don't sell Commanders in CA. :mad:
(Confession: actually, I wouldn't even be happy leaving most semi-customs alone... :eek: The ambi safety that Brown puts on the CA-approved models would have to go, and the 3-dots sights don't work for me. Personally, I think they're just a fad.)

[Geo]

Just trying to look out for all of you based on unfortunate knowledge...;(

[Local Talent]

The bottom line for me is that I'm no "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" type. I've read a lot of Ayoob and am a believer. I've also sat on a few juries and know that they will not be my peers, if you catch my drift. So the advice of the stock gun is sound and the point well taken.

But that's one of those things where for me, and I won't ask anybody to follow me there, knowing what I know about guns, I'd rather tinker a bit (reasonably - I'm not setting up a .45 ACP for .45 Super) than play those "good enough" odds. If you have ever watched your brakes being done or oil changed at Iffy Noob, you'll know what I mean. Some things you gotta do yourself, or have a real pro address them.

If I were a new guy getting into carrying guns for a living, especially in CA, I'd pay serious attention to what Geo and usabodyguard are saying.

I'm just too old to learn new tricks, but I still have plenty up my sleeve. I'm afraid we're entering the territory of the things best discussed off-line, though. :)

ETA: the FBI's HRT's handgun is a Springfield, the civilian version of which (the "Professional") goes for close to $3K and has a one-year wait. SA beat out Baer to the punch for that contract, BTW, although that doesn't take anything away from Baer. Just mentioning this to make the point that when today's agencies spec a 1911, they know better than ordering an off-the-shelf model. Guns that sell for less than $1K are hobby-guns, not serious tools, and way too much crap and fluff is sold for $1.5K. Some can be made better, of course, but they'll need work done. See all the mods required to end up with the MEU-SOC pistol, in that respect.
So, given the restrictions we've been discussing (no mods allowed), the 1911 does not seem a good option for a work gun... unless one is willing to get a thoroughbred, keep it stock, and turn it into a disposable beater (some do).

What you guys have been saying made me think and I might just go that route (semi-custom) in the future, and please forgive me if I quote myself again here: Shallow as it sounds to some, guns laws are what ends up pushing quite a few people out of CA. It's not just frustrating not to get what you want - it's getting too hard to be sure we're in compliance. :mad: