Favorite weapon for EP work and why???

[Lone Wolf]

My favorite weapon(s) are...
P226 (Sig Sauer) or H&K USP 9mm They are very accurate and reliable under most field conditions
M4 5.56 for fire support Because Im familiar with them.. Although I would like to get my hands on an H&K416 That is one sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeetttttttttttt weapon
Mossberg m590a1.. Just cause I like it..

[Local Talent]

All good choices, Wolf. ^ :thumbs:

I personally think that a gun is a gun. As long as you have decent quality equipment of duty-grade, and you're familiar with it, the rest is mostly about the software.

And now that I've spit out the obligatory disclaimer... (;)), I'll bite. My preferences:

Handgun: all-steel 1911 in .45, Commander-sized when concealment is needed, otherwise full size.
The platform is built around the .45 round, that I think gives the best compromise for defensive use: solid terminal ballistics due to best momentum/penetration balance, control due to heavy but not snappy recoil, low flash, low report (less dbs than any serious caliber), and low pressure for less mechanical stress and risk of ka-boom (no need to sweat bullet setback much).
.45 ACP can be beat by its competitors on one count here and there (9mm gives more capacity, 10mm more power and flat trajectory, .357 SIG more penetration, etc.), but it remains the overall best caliber for our applications, and in my view.

Then you have all the handling qualities of the gun: great, consistent trigger, flatness for concealment, balance (no top-heaviness when empty here), ruggedness, etc.
Looking at a 1911 from above (esp. at chamber level) is still mind-blowing too me: such a powerful and fat round in such a slim package... For a 19th century design, it's a resounding success.
The aftermarket on parts and gear for it is so huge that you're bound to find all you need and all the custom accessories to make the gun fit your hand, and that's another big plus. Again, modularity for such an old design is amazing.
I prefer steel for durability, balance, and recoil-absorption.
You may or may not be swayed by subjective appeal coming from aesthetics, an all-American firearm, or history. I am. 15-20 years younger and I'd probably be running polymers or SIGs and think that 1911s are like classic Mustangs. :)

Downsides: low capacity (not a real factor for CCW, security or EP, but still...) and need for familiarity with the platform. More recent designs are simpler, easier/cheaper to produce, and usually more trouble-free out-of-the-box... Doesn't affect me since I've done my homework, know what models work and how to keep 'em running, and frankly, have invested so much in research, parts, and training that I'm done looking elsewhere until the phasers come out. :)

Shotgun: 6-round 590 Mossberg, like Wolf.
A 12 gauge pump is an awesome weapon within range. Others more knowledgeable than me prefer subguns to it, but from experience I disagree. And for us civvies, the use of grand-daddy's gun is probably less "objectionable" from the sheep's point of view.
I'm not a big guy so the long versions with higher cap are too much to handle.
Mossies may not be as "solid-feeling" as Remmies with their steel receivers and no-rattle build, or as fancy as Winchesters with their rotating bolt, but they bury the others when it comes to ergos and balance. Handling of slide-release and safety, in particular, are a breeze even in total darkness, as reloading is (not so with any other model with their elevators down!). Safety "buttons" by the trigger guard are really asking for trouble, IMHO...
Then the 590 has a better mag cap than the regular 500, and metal safety tang & trigger guard, so that's my choice, but I've had 2 500s and loved 'em.

And that's it! It's been 20 years since I've fired a rifle or a subgun and don't see too much use for them in heavily populated urban environments.
If I worked PSDs overseas or at a ranch stateside, I might turn to a .308 or some M4 variant, but I don't see that in my future.

[Lone Wolf]

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTT LT...

I remember the 1911 from the military that I carried daily... I loved it.. And for all practical purposes I must agree with you on every thing you just said about it.. I limited my weapons choice to what I can carry here in Fl.. That said a 9mm is it... FOR NOW.. Rumor mill has it that either this coming year or the following year we will be able to carry .40 or .45... If thats the case Ill be upgrading to my Sig Sauer P220... Love that weapon... Reliable accurate, light trigger squeeze, easy to use.. Main safety on it is keeping the bugger stick off the bang switch though..

I believe as you stated you cant beat it for knock down power.. Low ballistics speed power and mass.. Big hole going in.. Generally doesnt come out...

[Local Talent]

Yeah, not everybody agrees of course, but since most handgun rounds end up working about the same, we're splitting hairs. However, a discussion about favorites hinges on preferences and THAT's wide open, of course... :)

Sorry to hear about the caliber restrictions in FL, bro...
The most common ones here are .38/.357, .40, 9mm, and .45, of course, but I've seen .380 and .44 on some permits. When I asked the BSIS for a list of acceptable calibers, they refused to answer (they don't regulate that), and told me to turn to training instructors instead, so they seem pretty lenient.
I doubt anything too exotic, like .454 Casull or .500 S&W would be smart, though (:devil2:). Because most guys' goal in CA is to score a CCW, and THEN, restrictions abound.
Some agencies deny magnum rounds or single action pistols, for ex., which really screws revolver and 1911 guys.

Anyway, I digress as usual, but most security guys qualify for .40, of course, because that's what most LEAs issue, because they bought the hype (:p), and because it's required on govt contracts. By Gavin DeBecker and Galahad too, AFAIK.

I say screw 'em, no .45/1911, no LT! Then again that may be why I'm working a uniformed gig the next few days... You'd think that a man saying that a gun's a gun wouldn't care, but I can't stand micromanaging, esp. when it comes to something as personal as weapons & tactics. :mad:

SIGs and HKs are fine weapons, man! What kind of trigger action do you favor on yours, traditional DA or DAK/LEM?

[Lone Wolf]

Sweet Ill bring my .45 to Cali then.. I like both the SA /DA action of the Sig and H&K I dont really have a preference.. I generally have the triggers reworked on my weapons as well.. Nothing that I have as far as trigger pull is factory.. They are all modified and are about half of what the manufacturer built them with...

[Hornerjp]

My number 1 pick is a good flashlight and a pad & pen! If I do carry, it is either a Glock 23 (company weapons policy) or my Sig P229 DAK in .40 s&w.
But like I said, nothing beats a good flashlight, and good old advance work!

[Local Talent]

My number 1 pick is a good flashlight and a pad & pen!
Are we talking about a pen knife? ;)
Just kidding, those are a big no-no in CA, of course...

[Zeami]

"Favorite weapon for EP work and why

'My number 1 pick is a good flashlight'... Hornerjp"

For uniformed patrol maybe, but a Maglight kind of clashes with a suit and tie! :D

[Lone Wolf]

I also carry a small Surefire flashlight in my suit as well.. along with the Sig and other toys that I have...

[Local Talent]

I too, do consider "combat lights" as weapons in that they'll blind opponents to give you the advantage... but you'll still need something like a 3D Maglite to then beat the crap out of 'em, and I think that was Zeami's point! :D

I'm surprised nobody said yet that the best weapon is between your ears. ;)
Then again, we're in the firearms section, so c'm'on guys, what do or would you like to carry for EP?
Someone is bound to think that 1911s are daddy's guns or that Mossbergs are cheap rattletraps, no?! :p Anybody likes working nuclear plants or what not with MP5s or M4s? Any hardcore wheelgun guys on here? Who prefers them Benellis or Remmy 1100s for rate of fire?
And what about all our European members: do you guys even have access to guns? How 'bout some exotic stuff you used in the service like a FAMAS or SA-80? Any questions about U.S. laws or tactics?

Let's hear it fellas! :)

[Lone Wolf]

Well LT I have those weapons too.. I recently built an M4 from the ground up... But from what I understand they can not be brought into Cali is that correct? The M4 specifically that is... And yes I have worked at a Nuke Plant and carried a lot of cool toys too... WAY FUN...

[Local Talent]

Well LT I have those weapons too.. I recently built an M4 from the ground up... But from what I understand they can not be brought into Cali is that correct? The M4 specifically that is... And yes I have worked at a Nuke Plant and carried a lot of cool toys too... WAY FUN...
I have to admit ignorance when it comes to rifles because of the lack of need for me, and the fact that most are banned in CA anyway. I just don't want to get busted for something as ridiculous as a bayonet attachment, so I stay away from black rifles (which is exactly "their" goal... :mad:).
It is very tricky to know what's legal here, even when it comes to handguns, sometimes. I remember reading that the assault weapon's list was so confusing that even the DA stated that he wasn't sure how to enforce it. :rolleyes:

But if your M4 is on the banned list (and I'd bet big it is), you're right that you can't bring it here.
If you're planning on bringing guns to CA, and you mentioned your .45 and a future CCW app so you must be, you'll have to register them in this state too.

Are we talking about a full-auto M4 version, BTW (I assume you'd have said AR 15 otherwise)? Those are legal in FL, right?

Those guys have all the dirty details: http://www.calguns.net/. That's a lot of reading.

[Lone Wolf]

Yes semi auto AR 15 one of the companies that I do some work for has is arranged for us to carry full auto weapons though.. I dont my thought process I guess is a little more limited.. Im a one shot one kill kinda person I only used full auto when I was active duty and even then there was way to much spray and pray going on.. ONE SHOT ONE KILL.. RULEZ...

[Local Talent]

I'm with you on the spray and pray, Wolf! I was just trying to ward off the nitpicking rifle-nazis on the M4/M16/AR15/CAR15/and -who-knows-what-else thing, but we don't seem to have those here... :D
The number of versions of our military rifle gives me a headache. I've already had to spend years earning my "1911 guy"status. :) Rifles are another scene entirely.

That's awesome that you're OK to carry full-autos at work in FL, man. I don't think there's any BSIS cert for long arms in CA, and that may be why so few jobs allow them. I've only spotted a few pumps on private property here and there.

[Lone Wolf]

Well my deal is that I have all the toys I could possibly need to do any job that I could possibly come across.. We.. (the group that I work with here) also do gigs outside the country ie going to the Bahamas, Haiti and Puerto Rico, and Costa Rica, so we do alot of stuff out of the continental US as well. My personal favorite is still the handgun...

[usabodyguard]

Ok, my input....

what's my favorite weapon? MY MIND :D

yes really.

but if you mean physical weapon, a .40, a tac light (surefire), and a cell phone... never leave home without any of them, (yes, i have a CA CCW)

[Lone Wolf]

Ok, my input....

what's my favorite weapon? MY MIND :D

yes really.

but if you mean physical weapon, a .40, a tac light (surefire), and a cell phone... never leave home without any of them, (yes, i have a CA CCW)

USA I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE there is no better weapon in the world than one's mind.... Great answer...

[Local Talent]

Of course, of course, but aren't we in the firearms section? :p
Sometimes, ya just gotta talk gunz (even if we know how little use they'll see)... :D

[Lone Wolf]

This is true. THE GUNZ RULE.... LMAO

[Keetryarima]

I was pulled over by the cops, i told them i had a weapon under the seat of the car. they charged me with a concealed weapon charge and fireing by the interstate. I have no felonies this is a misdamenor charge. Now that these two charges are on my background I cant get a job. Why cant I get a job even though these chareges are not felonies? Is there anything I could do so that I could at least get a job?

[Geo]

What state did it happen in?. Perhaps you could get the record expunged depending on the state. Hard to answer because you must have had a reason for carrying a gun underneath your seat, but again each state is so different. Also we all really need to be up on the weapons codes for each state, even us who are sworn. I had no idea when i travel to Nj a few years back that you could not have armor piercing rounds in your handgun. I had a little foresight to check the state laws on handgun carrying/ammo for the state...all the best Geo

[Sumo]

I have 2 main Pieces that I use primary is a glock 17 (9mm) its always carried in a staggered reverse sling on my right hip just behind my pocket (between my wallt and hip pocket I find if your standing feet slightly askew folks cant see it) I use the reverse (or left hand holster on right side) so I can slide my right hand back under my suit or track jacket and throw down if need be. The other piece is a glock 23 (.40 cal) ((anyone who says the h&k usp sc is better gets to do a bullet to bullet comparison lol)) I wear the 23 on a cross shoulder sling I am a big guy I like to keep stuff hidden and out of my way.

[Lone Wolf]

I was pulled over by the cops, i told them i had a weapon under the seat of the car. they charged me with a concealed weapon charge and fireing by the interstate. I have no felonies this is a misdamenor charge. Now that these two charges are on my background I cant get a job. Why cant I get a job even though these chareges are not felonies? Is there anything I could do so that I could at least get a job?

Im not all that up to snuff on the Cali Gun laws although I do know that they are alot more anti gun than anything.. Here if you are charged for something involving a firearm you wont find work either... I know a few guys that have been charged with that...

Now in Cali do they have the Castle Doctrine or Act in Place? Was your weapon loaded (I know silly question mine always are) and was it in a holster? Did you have to take more than three acts to remove it from the holster or from under the seat?

Just a couple of thoughs from the other side of the nation for now...

[Local Talent]

Guys, I have a feeling you won't get any responses from Keetryarima. I didn't wanna say anything just yet, but I smell spam. If I'm wrong, my apologies.

[Lone Wolf]

Probably not but who knows..

[Local Talent]

We've unfortunately had our share of "members" with no known affiliation to the industry, no good reason to post, and sole goal to advertise a website or messaging address in their profile or sig line.
Usually, the thread title will be repeated by them, and the post will have little to no connection with the topic at hand, like a bad Google search hit. I suspect it's automated, but I'm no computer whiz as you guys know...
I've been fooled a couple of times, and usually report them to ALEX, our professional axman... :D
I'm still sitting on the fence on this one: Keetryarima, please tell me I'm wrong...

[Sumo]

dude i say...http://www.michaelmccurry.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/thumbs-down-300x281.jpg

[Lone Wolf]

Think I agree with SUMO on this one...

[Dhernandez2319]

LoneWolf, I to enjoy the accuracy of the P226 only in a 40Cal. That is all I use. I not only use it for some work but I also use in I.D.P.A. or I.S.I matches. No one else uses it. Everyone uses Glock or A generic 1911, .45. Nice handguns both but I feel comfortable with the one that I will use in a stick situation.

[Local Talent]

Yeah, besides the "brain" answer, one could say that their favorite weapon is the one that's riding in their holster the day the SHTF, or the one they know they can hit with.

Lots of military or LE folks favor their issued weapon, whatever it is, because that's what they've used and what they've seen work when for real. Same with guys who compete, although there's probably nothing like the trust you have in equipment that actually saved your hide.
And that's why we all have different faves.

Sometimes, just by looking at someone's gear, you can tell who trained them.
I love talking guns online, but in the field, I actually keep that to a minimum because we all know that a tool's a tool, and is only as good as the operator behind it.

[Dhernandez2319]

Lone Wolf, Yeah! I hear you. I dislike getting into those conversations because, well it wont do any good discussing it while working on a detail. What a person has is what they'll use. I myself at one point or another own several different handguns. I finally decided that I just like one, maybe 2. The others I either sold or still have. And I'm a pretty good shot. But alass I think this type of conversation falls under the same type as to "What type of car do you drive?". It is ultimately the choose of the use and the affordability factor along with general what's popular today...LOL. I see alot of that. I have my fav's but there are some out there I'd rather not use. Some many toys to chose from. I think I'll buy a Berreta or a Walther for my B-day this year..

[Dhernandez2319]

OOPSS! My last was not suppose to be Lone Wolf, although I think his insight is good. It was for Local Talent (LT) Sorry for the mix up. I'm new to this.

[Dhernandez2319]

Hey guys I'm building an AR but I am still missing an Upper that I can depend on. And the Ammo used. Not sure If I want to go .223, .308 or 6.8 ( newer round ). I hear good things about the all of them but As for the Uppers it mixed. And with the prices going up almost $300 since 2008 ist's hard to find someone in California who isn't trying to sell his junk for $750. I just need a good name Brand for my upper for an AR. I am not familior with the Brand names...

[Local Talent]

OOPSS! My last was not suppose to be Lone Wolf, although I think his insight is good. It was for Local Talent (LT) Sorry for the mix up. I'm new to this.
Why, mistaken for my good buddy Wolf, I'm very flattered... :)

I do think that, all disclaimers aside, online discussions are perfectly appropriate and enjoyable as long as everybody (as is the case on this forum) is contributing, not trying to be right or to put down others' choices.
Even if in the end we all know that "it's the Indian, not the bow" that counts, the undecided need at least some informed opinions to form their own.

I'm with you on the consolidation of weapon platforms (even calibers), Dhernandez2319. It makes more sense for economic and training reasons to stick to one (as long as it's good) choice. "Beware of the man with one gun" they say, because he presumably knows how to use it well.

Can't speak to your AR question because I'm no rifle expert. Unless someone here chimes in, you'd probably find a lot of input at www.calguns.net or www.ar15.com.
I'll just say that, again, for economical and practical reasons, I stick to proven calibers widely in use. Easier to find (and cheaper), and if the SHTF, available from friends and others. You don't wanna be the only one on your detail, or block, shooting 10mm or 6.8. Especially when other calibers with similar ballistics are much more widespread.

[chiggins83187]

Hey guys I'm building an AR but I am still missing an Upper that I can depend on. And the Ammo used. Not sure If I want to go .223, .308 or 6.8 ( newer round ). I hear good things about the all of them but As for the Uppers it mixed. And with the prices going up almost $300 since 2008 ist's hard to find someone in California who isn't trying to sell his junk for $750. I just need a good name Brand for my upper for an AR. I am not familior with the Brand names...

It all depends on what you want to spend. I have a DPMS, and have liked it pretty well. The big names are Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, and DPMS (probably in that order). I don't claim to be an AR expert, but that might help you get in the right direction. As was stated, I'd stick with .223 or .308. Right now .223 is going for about $0.30/round, and I can't speak to .308, as I don't have that caliber. But, I know it'd be more.

In regards to which to get: I'd go with .223. Can't really give you a GREAT reason against .308, but as a friend of mine said: "There's a reason that the military uses .223"

[Dhernandez2319]

Thank you all for your input. I have to start looking for the uppers and Chiggins83187 I'll try the .223 and see what it feels like. LT your right about that. Man, this is starting out to be a really good decision to join this Forum. Again Thank you.

[Lone Wolf]

You may want to try www.midwayusa.com thats where I got my upper from when I was building my .223 they also have scopes and sights as well.. You can literally build one from the ground up through this website.. .I would also suggest that if you are ordering parts, order an extra bolt, T handle and ejector springs...

Although I know it is a new weapon you never know when one of these components may fail...

[Dhernandez2319]

LONE WOLF thanks for this info. It is financially sound to buy two of everything because and an instructor advised me once, "Anything Man Made is going to fail. Your fault there fault, noones fault, it will fail." Sound advise from him and you. Thanks

[Dhernandez2319]

Well looks like I should proof my post before sending..LOL. Sorry! Ok, it makes sence to buy two of each because you never know what or when a catastrophic failure will occur. At least this way you're covered by being able to have a functioning weapon up and ready.

[joshkinney86]

H&K416 is a freaking sweet weapon. I carry a 9mm high point. Say what you will about the quality but I shot 2,000 rounds through it before I had to clean it lol. My concealment weapon is a .40 Taurus Melenium. Stainless steel slide doesn't get dirty at all. I currently train with Blackwater say what you will about them too but their training is by far the best I've ever had. I'm in the market for starting a security firm too by the way.

[Lone Wolf]

H&K416 is a freaking sweet weapon. I carry a 9mm high point. Say what you will about the quality but I shot 2,000 rounds through it before I had to clean it lol. My concealment weapon is a .40 Taurus Melenium. Stainless steel slide doesn't get dirty at all. I currently train with Blackwater say what you will about them too but their training is by far the best I've ever had. I'm in the market for starting a security firm too by the way.

Ive seen the H&K 416 through You Tube... I was very impressed infact I wanted to get one when I first saw it.. I even went so far as to contact H&K to inquire only to be told that they dont sell to Private Market at this time... I did see one on one of the auction sites for like $4500 I was like out of my league at this time...

[Local Talent]

Well looks like I should proof my post before sending..LOL. Sorry! Ok, it makes sence to buy two of each because you never know what or when a catastrophic failure will occur. At least this way you're covered by being able to have a functioning weapon up and ready.
You know what they say, "two is one, one is none"... ;)
I'm also a "NY reload" man, and you never know when your primary will be in the shop or seized for evidence anyway, requiring you to grab a duplicate for work in a pinch. Same weapon = same ammo, gear, and muscle memory. All good.

On another note, since I've mentioned my fondness for 1911s, my team leader today noticed my weapon and freaked: "Put your hammer down on that thing, I've seen a ND before on a Sig!" Ouch.
So for those who wonder whether being a gun guy is a requirement for EP, the answer is apparently... NOPE! :eek: (My gun remained in it's perfectly safe condition one configuration, BTW. :rolleyes:)

[Lone Wolf]

You know what they say, "two is one, one is none"... ;)
I'm also a "NY reload" man, and you never know when your primary will be in the shop or seized for evidence anyway, requiring you to grab a duplicate for work in a pinch. Same weapon = same ammo, gear, and muscle memory. All good.

On another note, since I've mentioned my fondness for 1911s, my team leader today noticed my weapon and freaked: "Put your hammer down on that thing, I've seen a ND before on a Sig!" Ouch.
So for those who wonder whether being a gun guy is a requirement for EP, the answer is apparently... NOPE! :eek: (My gun remained in it's perfectly safe condition one configuration, BTW. :rolleyes:)

ND on a SIG with the Hammer down??? You gotta be kidding me right??? I always carry with the tube hot and hammer down.. I am thinking however about maybe changing weapons now.. Looking at the M&P 9mm for now... But when i come to cali since I can carry my .45 I'll be carrying my Sig P220...

[Local Talent]

ND on a SIG with the Hammer down??? You gotta be kidding me right???
Reading diagonally, Wolf? :D (I do the same and that forces me to read too many things twice, brother!)
My 1911 was in condition one, cocked & locked, as any 1911 should be. The hammer was cocked, and this is was freaked the guy, a typical non-gun person reaction.
So what he saw before is a cocked hammer on a holstered Sig, which IS dangerous. In his ignorance, he wanted me to put the hammer down (decock), which would've been the right thing to do on a Sig, certainly not on a 1911.

Whenever I work for a new company or join a new detail, I wonder who will have a problem with a C&L 1911. I usually don't expect such reactions from team leaders or instructors, but the times they are a-changing... :mad:
The Israelis I've worked for insisted that the gun should not be chambered. When I trained with them, I was shocked to realize that they didn't use the thumb safety on their Browning HPs, and had never seen an extended one, as it is the norm in the US.
It amazes me that "professionals" would try and tell other pros what or how to carry, when we're not talking about govt agencies, and especially when they are so out of touch.

ETA: I can be old and out of touch myself: just remembered that Sig does make 1911s! I say ".45" and mean 1911, and "Sig" and mean 226-220, etc. Ah, already an old fart... lol

[kevbarand]

I know I'm getting in on this a bit late but I carry a Glock 22 with a TLR-1 and a Glock 27 back-up on my weak side ankle. I know there is much controversy with this piece of "tupperware" but this is why.

1) The trigger pull is always the same. First shot or last makes no difference. With double/single action weapons many test have concluded that, in the heat of the moment, the first shot (hardest/longest pull) misses its target the majority of the time. With a Glock that issue is negated.

2) The magazines are interchangeable with same caliber weapons. Atleast, when going from a larger frame to a smaller frame. Meaning my 15 round Glock 22 mags fit in my Glock 27 back-up with no issues. A great feature when you have extra mags on your belt.

3) The most important to me but least important to everyone else, I trained with this weapon in the academy and my trigger reset sounds damn near full auto. When I shoot my H&K P2000 I end up slapping the trigger like a spaz. I know it was said before but what you train with is definitely what you should stick with if you don't plan on putting in the time to make the transition. That goes for holsters as well. (A co-worker of mine was almost sliced by a nut with a sword because he was wearing an unfamiliar holster and couldn't get his gun out in time. Luckily he had the sense to hit the deck and let his partner deal with the situation.)

On the topic of the H&K 416, I know it's not a 416 but I have a gas piston Bushmaster and that thing is so sweet. Less recoil and the excess gas shoots up from the gas block reducing muzzle climb. It also stays very clean unlike any other AR/M-16 variant. The only negative is that I cannot find an aftermarket foregrip that fits without major modification due to the piston but atleast the stock grip has rails.

[Local Talent]

Great observations, sir. And if I'm no tupperware-lover myself, it is actually what I end up recommending to a lot of people for all the reasons you mentioned and more (ease of maintenance, tolerance for neglect & abuse, simplicity of MOA, and even likely ability to share mags & ammo with the rest of team, etc.).
Glocks in particular are probably the 21st century's equivalent to the S&W K-frame of a few decades ago.

I also fully agree with the need for a consistent trigger pull and prefer DAOs to DA/SAs for that reason, but in reality I gravitate towards 1911s, as I've mentioned already too many times (:D), and even wheelguns (:eek:).

Sticking to one platform, and the one you train with, is another smart choice. I've seen people fail (at the range, thank God, for disregarding this advice). And whether you were the shooter in a particular incident (http://cbs2.com/local/Scientology.shooting.sword.2.871697.html) that took place in my AO just a couple of years ago or not, congrats on a job well done, BTW. :thumbs:

[kevbarand]

I also fully agree with the need for a consistent trigger pull and prefer DAOs to DA/SAs for that reason, but in reality I gravitate towards 1911s, as I've mentioned already too many times (:D), and even wheelguns (:eek:).

Sticking to one platform, and the one you train with, is another smart choice. I've seen people fail (at the range, thank God, for disregarding this advice). And whether you were the shooter in a particular incident (http://cbs2.com/local/Scientology.shooting.sword.2.871697.html) that took place in my AO just a couple of years ago or not, congrats on a job well done, BTW. :thumbs:

No that was not me at the scientology event. The incident I mentioned happened in Coachella. Those of you that know about Coachella are not surprised.

Regarding the 1911 issue...I was not authorized to carry a 1911. Due to the cocked hammer and light trigger pull they were reserved for SWAT. I would have considered carrying one and at one point really wanted to, but magazine capacity was also a factor.

[Local Talent]

Yeah, for patrol or military duty, I probably wouldn't go 1911 either. For civilian CCW, plain clothes LE (of course, few agencies authorize 1911s these days) or EP, on the other hand, I think they more than hold their own against plastic.
But 1911s, just like revos, are very much a generation thing. In the end, as has been said, the man holding the gun is much more important than the hardware, no matter how much we love to talk about the latter.

[Lone Wolf]

I know I'm getting in on this a bit late but I carry a Glock 22 with a TLR-1 and a Glock 27 back-up on my weak side ankle. I know there is much controversy with this piece of "tupperware" but this is why.

1) The trigger pull is always the same. First shot or last makes no difference. With double/single action weapons many test have concluded that, in the heat of the moment, the first shot (hardest/longest pull) misses its target the majority of the time. With a Glock that issue is negated.

2) The magazines are interchangeable with same caliber weapons. Atleast, when going from a larger frame to a smaller frame. Meaning my 15 round Glock 22 mags fit in my Glock 27 back-up with no issues. A great feature when you have extra mags on your belt.

3) The most important to me but least important to everyone else, I trained with this weapon in the academy and my trigger reset sounds damn near full auto. When I shoot my H&K P2000 I end up slapping the trigger like a spaz. I know it was said before but what you train with is definitely what you should stick with if you don't plan on putting in the time to make the transition. That goes for holsters as well. (A co-worker of mine was almost sliced by a nut with a sword because he was wearing an unfamiliar holster and couldn't get his gun out in time. Luckily he had the sense to hit the deck and let his partner deal with the situation.)

On the topic of the H&K 416, I know it's not a 416 but I have a gas piston Bushmaster and that thing is so sweet. Less recoil and the excess gas shoots up from the gas block reducing muzzle climb. It also stays very clean unlike any other AR/M-16 variant. The only negative is that I cannot find an aftermarket foregrip that fits without major modification due to the piston but atleast the stock grip has rails.

Weel Kev.. Im no Glock fan plain and simple.. There is a time and a place for them however, I recently tried to do a qual shoot with one.. BAD MISTAKE on my part.. It was more for fun than anything but the point being Im used to my Sig and thats what I shoot..
For people that need that extra.. OH YEAH they are great. Its a proven statistic that only 2 out of 10 bullets that are fired in a firefight hit their target.. Not good odds plain and simple...

I have not had the fortune to fire the H&K 416 but I have had the opportunity to fire the Sig 556.. Again I must say Sig makes a few weapons that are very impressive. Ie the 556, the 220, 226, 229 Love those weapons..

[Dhernandez2319]

I to Love the SIG! I've Shoot everything I could get my hads on in my life...There is one thing I learned....It doesn't matter what you use, Just make sure you use it well. The best weapon is the one you have when you need it. Plain and simple. The only reason I don't like the GLOCKS is because my hand is curved in such a manner that I cannot support the the weapon after one magazine. I have to continuously regrip. Maybe it's just me but ok it's me. However I can hit the barn with it. The same hold true with the STAR, Chinese made but OK. Beretta's are left out of this conversation and so are the S&W's Why? They are also good weapons...Some of you also mentioned CULT's...
The point is Make, Model, Caliber all set aside, we all have our preferences and it is truely the handeler that makes the difference. if you pay out $1200 for a KIMBER .45 and you can't hit the 10 ring....then maybe the same could be said about a $300 38 S&W...Right? Know you weapon, but also try something else as well. "VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE" LOL

[Dhernandez2319]

Guys and Gals I just love Weapons!

[Local Talent]

Yeah, Berettas and S&Ws are perfectly good weapons that aren't shown much love, but if more people posted, I'm sure you'd find that they ride in quite a few holsters.
The 92/96 lines saw popularity because of the military (and some local LEAs here, as well as Mel Gibson and Bruce Willis ;)) using them, but this being a bodyguard's forum, I'd say they're not the best choice for CCW due to a poor bulk & weight to power ratio. If (for some reason) you must carry a nine... why pack a piece larger than a 1911?

Some other great weapons like the HK USP suffer from the same CCW-unfriendliness.
Let's face it, we need the most reliable, potent, and carryable package. That excludes lots of cheap, hi-cap, bulky, heavy, non-ergonomic, and/or angular firearms.

Often, weapons choices (most choices, really) are made for purely emotional reasons. Just because a gun is used by your favorite HSLD team or shown in the latest action movie doesn't make it adapted to you, or your use.

Now past a certain price point and quality level, any gun should do. I know I shoot and qualify (for fun, as Wolf does) with all kinds, regardless of my own particular biases, and they all put them where needed.

And I just want to reiterate that, in my view, capacity is far from critical in our specific application. I'd take a slim and light gun before a large one if capacity is the only difference. Mil & LE requirements are different from ours.

[Dhernandez2319]

I hear you and your are right. But for the new guys just getting their feet wet it's something to think about. Sometimes the $9 an hour is barely enough to live in a one bed room apartment. Even a $15 an hour is hard to make ends meet. The point is you use what you can when you can. Even a used Glock or SIG is abit over $500. Concealment is a creative learning process and I have had to make some neccessary adjustments.
Again I agree with your reasons, a Glock is good no an excellent weapon for concelment, there are no external latches to catch on your cloths when drawing. It is an excellent handgun and Most users sware by it. I just find it difficult for me. Thanks for your input.

[Wisconsinprotect822]

I carry a Glock 22 for my everyday job but if I was to do E.P. work I would carry my S&W MP 40 full size or my M&P 40 Compact. I really love these sidearms and the have lower front sight giving me a better shot pattern at longer range.

If your looking for a good flashlight, I have gone to the Streamlight LED tactical its awsome. Very bright, reacharge it once every two weeks (I use my everynight) has several tactical settings and two different power buttons pending on what you using it for.

I also carry a Smith and Wesson SWAT knife, never know when it may come in handy.

CHC

[Local Talent]

Sorry about the thread resurrection - it's a tad slow around here and it's been a popular topic, after all.
I was just reading a similar post on another site and started thinking about what makes a firearm appropriate for EP work per se.

A gun's a gun, right? Well sure, but like everything else some choices show insight and common sense, while others betray poor judgment and even carelessness. You can tell a pro by his tools.
And even within the scope of EP, job circumstances vary wildly: are we working at a safe and remote estate? Is the principal pro- or anti-gun? Are there kids hanging around us? Crowded big city events or high risk overseas PSD? Do we go home every day, where we can baby the gear, or are we playing in some third world dirthole with little access to spare parts and the best US duty-grade ammo? All this can limit or open our options.

I know that my choices are based on the type of work I usually do (low risk domestic stuff in litigious environments with a swift enough police response).
I regularly reassess and might do a 180 on platform and capacity if the missions changed drastically, however. But so far I've only fine-tuned: armed or not? Exposed or concealed? How many reloads? Extended or regular mags?
As I said before, the choice I went with is a compromise supposed to fulfill its likely roles reasonably well.

One thing I can't wrap my head around (and I know that some solid pros do just that) is people who constantly alternate between various platforms, calibers, and even carry-modes, sometimes at once if they carry several guns. Some fret at the notion of a weapon like the 1911 that require deactivation of a safety (a non-issue once it's ingrained), while others (multi-taskers?) apparently think they can transition seamlessly between action/reload modes and recoil characteristics in the heat of a sudden and brutal attack (you know, the type that call for a deadly force response) ...

We've also talked about the natural affinity that people have for equipment that was issued to them for years: that's what they know, they bonded with it, they've seen it work for real. I get it, but if they're serious about EP as a career, not just picking up some "play money" on the side, aren't some guns possibly a better fit for our applications? I see a lot of LEOs with Berettas 92s around here, for example, and they can usually be spotted from across the street! Wouldn't a Storm make more sense, if you trust the brand so much?


So, here's my take on the perfect EP gun:

1. Reliable: you're unlikely to ever use it, but if you do, it will be a last resort and you may very well be alone in the fight, and up close. It better work!
That weeds out some questionable manufacturers, even if they save you a couple of pennies (why pick a Taurus over a Beretta or S&W!?). That also should keep some people away from 1911s, not that the platform is unreliable, but more TLC is involved than with your typical tupperware to keep it that way.`

2. Concealable: few clients want to be aware of your hardware (:)), and professional agents don't look like they have stuff growing out of their sides (sorry, no G21, USP, or 92/96 for me. No railed "tactical" guns either). You shouldn't be able to tell if a pro is armed... unless he wants you to.
Some modern polymer double stack grips are surprisingly slim. The slides and contours (ahem, what's with the trigger guards!) can be very blocky and aggressive, though. We rarely wear polar gloves on EP ops...
Guns with melt jobs, or at the very least dehorned, are very attractive for CCW. Drawing/reholstering from concealment can be tricky and happens a lot more than people let on (in the real world where I live).

3. Powerful: any service caliber should do, and the differences between them are mostly academic. This being said, I've mentioned before my choice of the .45 ACP as the best all-around combo of energy, momentum, low pressure, low flash, low report, manageable recoil, and large frontal surface (load selection is not nearly as critical as in 9mm, for example). To this day, all the contenders come with a host of negatives that seem unacceptable to me. The .40 S&W is ballistically equivalent (roughly) to the .45 ACP, but needs about 50% more PSI to get there, for example...

We may not have the benefit of fire support from the whole team and we'll typically have to stop threats with as few rounds as possible. So "just keep shooting" doesn't do it for me: it'll just increase the time you and your client spend under fire and the risk of hitting bystanders. We know that handguns suck and in some freaky cases we may have to empty into someone to see some effect, but I don't want that to turn into SOP! I want a serious caliber, and not one that only works in some loads or under some ideal circumstances.

4. Simple to operate, hopefully "point-and-shoot"-easy: again, drawing a weapon is a last, desperate measure for a defender. We may very well be busy driving away, fighting off an attack, or holding down a protectee when it's time to go to the gun. That's why "empty-chamber carry" is so irresponsible to me, BTW (regardless of how fast some think they are that way - with their two hands).

A revolver is actually a very good choice in my book for that. Problem is, some serious training schools don't allow them on the range anymore (even 1911s are penalized by some courses of fire geared toward double stacks these days). And then, expect to contend with endless annoying remarks from clients ("Oh, is this the type of gun you reload with the round thingies?") and colleagues/instructors who should know better ("How the hell are you supposed to defend yourself with that?!") - both real quotes, BTW. A company I interviewed for once spec'ed that agents had to carry 30 rounds of reloads on their person - that would be a lot of speedloaders, or even single stack mags! I thought the requirement was ridiculous, but it definitely betrayed the current thinking (they probably came up with that number by assuming two 15-round mags or 3 10-rounders, since we're in CA).
Anyway, I'm afraid that wheelguns signal a non-dedicated shooter to most these days. Now if you're a champ and couldn't care less about what others think, my hat's off to ya. Love revos myself. What keeps me completely away from them is that the ones firing those big rounds I favor (.44 & .45) come in frames too large for my hands or for CCW.

In extreme cases, we may also have to hand our backup to a protectee, so simpler = better for this, in theory. I've never heard of this ever happening, to be honest, but I can see things going that way. The fact that I stick to 1911s tell you how much I'm concerned with this eventuality, though.

5. "Enough gun" (overlaps with #2): as much as I think that full size duty guns with extended mag chutes, tac lights, and skateboard tape belong in the drop leg holsters of door kickers, I don't think that one should go too small either. I knew a guy who only wore a .32 in an ankle rig, just to satisfy the "armed" requirement - he had no intention to use the weapon... A mouse gun is sure better than no gun at all, but come on, when you need it, you'll need it bad! A reduced size (such as from Government to Commander, G17 to G19, or USP to P2000) is a reasonable concession to the job's circumstances, but it has to be a fighting gun!


The rest, like finish type and capacity, are peripheral issues rather irrelevant to EP and that can be argued successfully either way. Matter of personal choice to me, although there's been some jobs when I would've liked a high-cap (hell, I would've wanted a rifle for those).
And some of the most dangerous details I've been on in plain clothes, I had to go in unarmed, so that puts all that EP gun talk in perspective...

So, what's your rationale? We've got over 400 members and have only heard from a handful so far...

[Lone Wolf]

Great points LT.. Oh yeah I didnt fall of the face of the earth just been busy again.. WOW its amazing.. Im transitioning from the field to the class room as an instructor.. and seem to have started alot faster than what I anticipated... So Im kinda doing double duty right now.. between security, investigations and teaching not a lot of time for anything else.. infact I saw my wife the other night for the first time in weeks and she was like who the hell are you????

Rut ROE RAGGY!!!!!

[Local Talent]

LOL! I was wondering where you went, there. Good to see you putting to good use all these years in the field!

[SonnyPI]

Talking firearms is most interesting but the reality is the use of one is a rare situation, other than in a high risk situation and that is remote in California. Anytime it would be necessary to draw a firearm in anything less than a high risk situation, it is more likely we were not as alert or informed as we needed to be. Advance work and intelligence must be stressed. That being said.......

Although I am a 1911 supporter [have been since daddy put my first 1911 ACP in my little hands way back in 1962] and firearms instructor and have only drawn my firearm one time in all my field work as a bodyguard. My choice of weapon is the ASP collapsible baton. I also like a high lumen 200+ with strobe for disorientation..

It is very concealable, lightweight and can be presented quickly from various holstered locations on the body. I have used [ASP] it numerous times, sometimes discretely, sometimes not so; in public, at restaurants and during one serious altercation at a Vegas Casino rather than using my firearm. Its all about avoiding the mounds of paperwork those of you who have fired your sidearm have to deal with post shooting, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggg!

In regards to firearms, it is about shot placement, not caliber. Brain/ central nervous system hits with a .22 provide more compliance than a miss with anything else, unless you think the velocity wind will knock em down, lol

Please know that the above is just my opinion and I welcome any comments, criticism or questions! Sometimes my Brooklyn 'tude seeps out and it is not my intention of offending anyone here.

Cordially, Sonny

[Local Talent]

OK, since you're inviting comments so graciously... I'll bite! :D

1. You're absolutely right that firearms are very unlikely to be used in our line of work and that going to that extreme will usually indicate that the agent or team have failed at avoiding the situation altogether.
Sometimes, there is no avoiding it and you have to play the hand you're dealt, however: I doubt that a certain iraki "journalist" would have almost landed two hits with his odoriferous projectiles if only the USSS had been listened to (disclaimer: I don't have inside knowledge, but I doubt they were asleep at the wheel). If POTUS and his advisors disregard safety for political/photo-op reasons, what chance do we stand, right?
How many dead presidents yet? It's well known that if they want to get to you bad enough, they probably will. All our planning places layer after layer between protectee and threats in the hope that most will be deterred by the risk and effort.

I would hope that all of us who can at least claim to be grown-ups (:D) do know that the best weapon is between our ears, as a few people have noted in this thread.

The bottom line for me is that guns are toys for men and so we just like talking about them and showing them off. It's like shoes for the ladies: God knows they spend fortunes on their collections, but when was the last time you even asked one to dance based on her footwear? Irrational symbols of feminity and beauty is what they are. I think it's OK to indulge and embrace that part of ourselves once in a while (the gun-nuttery in my case, I mean, not the shoe fetish. Although... :D :devil2:)
Similarly, most of us should spend more money at the range than buying guns & ammo, or time training and educating ourselves than polishing our toys. So I agree with you that we should make sure we have our priorities straight. This out of the way... there's a time for everything.

If a guy I hardly know gets into a big conversation about hardware in the field, the newbie/mall ninja red flag goes up for me, that's for sure. But online (especially on a forum dedicated to a small community like ours), we're among friends, and while what we talk about is hardly going to make any of us change their mind, a new guy not so much into guns or even intimidated by that aspect of the business may come away with a few pointers or even an epiphany. Nuthin' wrong with that, and it's actually in the sharing spirit of all good online forums.

Last but not least, just looking at the numbers of views per thread on this forum, it's clear that guns and movies "sell". So while I didn't start this topic, I am of the somewhat perverse opinion that only once you hook them can you try and expand their horizons with a little wisdom thrown in there. If guns are what makes the pill sweeter, it's all good, I say! In fact, this makes me wonder whether we don't need more gun threads to whip up some participation...

2. The caliber thing... Oy, can it get ugly fast... :)
I think everybody is often right in their opinion - what sabotages their argument is absolute statements.

If caliber was all there was to stopping people, there wouldn't be horror stories of suspects returning fire after direct hits from rifles, 12 gauges, or even .50 BMG. Living things can be very hard to kill (folks have fallen out of aircrafts and survived! :eek:), so saying that bigger is always better is misleading to say the least. Bigger also means heavier, bulkier, and harder to hit with.

On the other hand if placement was "everything", we'd all carry .22s and be done with it. And as some fools like to say (lies, damn lies, and statistics!), the .22LR has killed more people in the US than all other calibers combined. They unfortunately conveniently forget to mention how long it took for the victims to expire... We deal in self-defense, not killing or assassination, and when we need to stop folks with deadly force, there's usually a certain urgency attached to the proceedings!

So I'll venture my own opinion here: although it has been shown that handgun service calibers are painfully ineffective, and although it has also been shown that they tend to perform about the same with adequate load selection... we, by trade, tend to do our darndest to gain any edge possible over the "competition" because the game is to keep our clients and ourselves alive (stakes are HIGH). If we weren't interested in winning at all costs, we wouldn't train, we wouldn't plan, and we wouldn't pay attention. But the devil is in the details, the "what-if's".

What would be the difference between a 115 grain bullet and a 230 one in a highly "desirable" spot of my adversary's anatomy (CNS)? Not much, as they tend to penetrate and expand roughly about the same in gelatin. Some claim that the difference is academic...
Well, it may be, but twice the mass (I find that quite a striking difference, personally! That's twice the momentum and twice the kinetic energy, no less.) may help that .45 chug along, punch its way through glass, heavy clothing, inches of fat, muscle, and bone, and finally reach what I'm trying to destroy.
I'm sure we all know that in that 1986 Miami shootout that sparked so much controversy and ballistics research, a good guy died after placing a round that stopped just short of his killer's heart. If one inch could have made a difference that day (and I realize it's impossible to determine that for sure), that's the kind of detail I'm talking about and that makes me go with a bigger rock.

There's a famous and popular photo comparison of various calibers (in gelatin) used by an also famous and highly regarded expert on the various internets to show how similarly common projectiles perform. To me, and no, I'm no expert myself, it is akin to showing an aerial shot of a freeway to make the point that all vehicles get you from A to B at 65 mph. Sometimes the truth is not the whole truth. That's where statistics become lies: the numbers may be accurate - they can still be used to hide the big picture.
A bus is not an SUV is not a motorcycle. You pick what you want to get around, but there ARE differences.

Forget .22s, even .38s and 9mm have bounced off skulls. I actually sat on the jury of a case where the victim had been shot point blank through an eye with a .22, and not only survived but prevailed (bullet exited through the ear), wrestling his attacker until help arrived. It can happen with any caliber - it's just less and less likely the bigger you get.

For a given shot placement, you want the biggest hole, and the most penetration (it's not me, it's the FBI saying it).

The fact that most US cops carry handguns chambered in major calibers does not betray machismo, but the state of wounds ballistics research at our point in time. Like theirs, handguns are usually our primaries and have to work, and work right now.

Sure, a hit with a .22 does beat a miss with a .45. OK. But I'm sure we're all men here (ETA: or capable women!), who can place accurate hits with a .45 or get our butts down to the range enough to make it happen. Now if someone recommends something like the .500 S&W, he should be run out of town because there's limits!

As far as the "velocity wind" comment, I know you're being facetious, Sonny, but the argument has actually been advanced that the street success enjoyed by the .357 mag (really a souped-up .38, often ballistically equivalent to a good 9mm) in decades of LE use could have something to do with its shock & awe fireworks show. There's no denying that something very bad just happened to you when you're blind, deaf, and got punched in the face by a shockwave. So given how much the psychological impact of getting shot affects the outcome of a gunfight, I'm betting on some advantage coming from the show put on by large guns and calibers.

3. As far as batons... I think we have to repeat here that they're not a concealed option to anyone but an active LEO (on or off-duty) in our state. So while in EP we might end up carrying them in uniform on occasion, there will be no substituting an ASP for a gun when in plain clothes. Illegally carrying a gun is actually only a misdemeanor while batons and other silent deadly weapons are felonies in CA!
(I'm going long so I'll let you hook us up with the actual legal stuff).

All the above from a fairly mellow California dude who is grateful for the opportunity to expand on this subject (and apologizes for the logorrhea attack)! :D:D:D

[SonnyPI]

LT, excellent points and I copy all!

Whew, glad I mentiond the serious altercation occured in Vegas.

And lastly, the Calfornia PC addressing the matter of discussion:

12002. (a) Nothing in this chapter prohibits police officers,
special police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers
from carrying any wooden club, baton, or any equipment authorized for
the enforcement of law or ordinance in any city or county.
(b) Nothing in this chapter prohibits a uniformed security guard,
regularly employed and compensated by a person engaged in any lawful
business, while actually employed and engaged in protecting and
preserving property or life within the scope of his or her
employment, from carrying any wooden club or baton if the uniformed
security guard has satisfactorily completed a course of instruction
certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the carrying and
use of the club or baton. The training institution certified by the
Department of Consumer Affairs to present this course, whether public
or private, is authorized to charge a fee covering the cost of the
training.
(c) The Department of Consumer Affairs, in cooperation with the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, shall develop
standards for a course in the carrying and use of the club or baton.
(d) Any uniformed security guard who successfully completes a
course of instruction under this section is entitled to receive a
permit to carry and use a club or baton within the scope of his or
her employment, issued by the Department of Consumer Affairs. The
department may authorize certified training institutions to issue
permits to carry and use a club or baton. A fee in the amount
provided by law shall be charged by the Department of Consumer
Affairs to offset the costs incurred by the department in course
certification, quality control activities associated with the course,
and issuance of the permit.
(e) Any person who has received a permit or certificate which
indicates satisfactory completion of a club or baton training course
approved by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training
prior to January 1, 1983, shall not be required to obtain a baton or
club permit or complete a course certified by the Department of
Consumer Affairs.
(f) Any person employed as a county sheriff's or police security
officer, as defined in Section 831.4, shall not be required to obtain
a club or baton permit or to complete a course certified by the
Department of Consumer Affairs in the carrying and use of a club or
baton, provided that the person completes a course approved by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training in the carrying
and use of the club or baton, within 90 days of employment.
(g) Nothing in this chapter prohibits an animal control officer,
as described in Section 830.9, or an illegal dumping enforcement
officer, as described in Section 830.7, from carrying any wooden club
or baton if the animal control officer or illegal dumping
enforcement officer has satisfactorily completed a course of
instruction certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the
carrying and use of the club or baton. The training institution
certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs to present this
course, whether public or private, is authorized to charge a fee
covering the cost of the training.

Cordially, Sonny

[Local Talent]

See, as someone who works/instructs in several states and stays on top of legal matters by profession, those distinctions aren't a problem for you, Sonny.

But in our line of work I see so many guys confused by local laws/business regs (I make plenty of mistakes too) that this is the reason why I voted "no" to multi-state advice in your other thread. I'm exposed to CCW issues on a national level by other forums but, and again that's just me, I'd prefer most discussions to be CA-oriented here.

A couple of years ago I took a class where the (good) instructor recommended the use of expandable batons for EP. I had to interject, "ahem - felony here!", in a friendly manner because the man was obviously just lapsing (he works all over), so that no student would get the wrong impression and go get in trouble.

[SonnyPI]

Sound advice LT. I will endeavor to focus on CA and make sure to highlight the distinction if I am referring to any other specific location(s).
Cordially, Sonny

[SonnyPI]

Ok, so I will change my favorite weapon in California to the garrote, so much more personal!!!:devil2::devil2:

[Local Talent]

I will endeavor to focus on CA and make sure to highlight the distinction if I am referring to any other specific location(s).
Awesome.
Ok, so I will change my favorite weapon in California to the garrote, so much more personal!!!:devil2::devil2:
And not even on the roster yet! Brilliant!

[Geo]

I've come to the conclusion that it is more important to choose a gun/caliber combo based on your ability to shoot it first, carry it second and enjoy it third. After that, shoot until they are down as best you can!......I did not write this Rob Pincus (Ice training) did. I agree with him on every level. All the best. geo

[SonnyPI]

Pincus and John Brown are outstanding instructors Geo as are many others. No one likes to be shot but the reality is, no matter how you train in peace, having the experience of a target firing back at you completely changes the dynamic. Having to actually shoot another human being or being shot yourself for the first time completely changes the dynamic. Please understand I am not criticising you, any trainer or training. Working in a war or hot zone is like nothing else and no training gets to that level. Once you experience tha reality subsequent training will keep you sharp.
Cordially, Sonny

[Geo]

Understood completely. Did not feel at all that you were critical towards me. You have no reason to be. I believe I was commenting on choice of weapons and I gave the board my thought process. As far as being involved in a critical incident. Some people are more apt to discuss their experiences than others. I am in agreement that training will never overtake actually being involved in combat whether it be this soil or foreign. All the best Geo

[Local Talent]

[...]it is more important to choose a gun/caliber combo based on your ability to shoot it first, carry it second and enjoy it third.
I'm going to nitpick on this part, with all due respect to Mr. Pincus and Geo (who, as both LEO and instructor, probably knows what he's talking about). Ability can and has to be acquired, otherwise complacency will make us turn to the wimpy stuff.

Here's what I mean: I see a lot of people shy away from large handgun calibers (I'm talking .40 or .45 here, not .454 Casull) or load their 12 gauges with reduced, so-called "tactical" loads. The thinking is precisely that placement comes first, so why "punish" yourself and risk missing? Overpenetration concerns are sometimes used as excuses, too, when we all know that misses are a lot more frequent and hazardous than through-and-throughs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that this mentality derives from competition, where people will download their ammo to barely make a given power factor and have the maximum control. In games, a lot of shortcuts made in order to score can hurt a weapon's street-worthiness. I can tell you that it's very obvious in the 1911 world where guns sold as tactical models have parts and tolerances that belong on match guns. The extended mag catch, skeletonized trigger and match chamber I had (past tense!) on mine have no place on a carry piece, for example. I think that some shooters are as confused as the manufacturers. Not saying this is the case of the present company.

So personally, and this comes from a guy with a somewhat diminutive frame, not your typical humongous bullet-catcher (:o), I welcome the abuse on my end if I think the gun delivers on the other. Again, I'm talking duty-type caliber/ammo, not ridiculous hunting hardware.
Could I shave a few tens or hundreds here and there by going smaller? I'm sure, but I don't think it matters that much. I'm not that recoil-sensitive either, so maybe I'm lucky.

I wish I could find that exact Jim Cirillo quote, but I'll have to paraphrase from memory: this guy who definitely saw and took down the elephant a few times claimed that when you have to draw under fire from a determined felon, every petty consideration about how heavy or hard-kicking the gun is will evaporate and you'll instantly regret not having a .44 mag in your hand.
This is where I'm coming from when I say that when we need it, we'll need it bad. Clint Smith's saying that a gun should be "comforting, not comfortable" also comes to mind.

So as long as we stay within reasonable parameters, which .45 or full-house 12 gauge certainly do, I think we should make the effort to shoot well the most potent rounds we can. I have no doubts that .22s or even .38s are a lot faster and easier to shoot, but I personally pass. If you make a beginner shoot those next to a .45, they'll probably like them better, but that's no reason for saying, "carry that, then".
Now if someone cannot hit well with a given caliber, they should gravitate to something else, sure, knowing that it will do its part if they do theirs. Most people in EP tend to be male and in great physical shape, though, and I would tell them to man up, but that's me. :devil2:

In the end, though, we're splitting hairs and we all know that "it's the indian, not the bow", that "a gun's a gun", and that skill, training and determination will carry the day, probably not (subjective) gear choices.
But then, those choices have to be made here, comfortably sitting at our keyboards where we can "bounce" our theories off other pros, rather than when it hits the fan (it will be too late!). So I think that all discussion is "a good thing". :)

Finally (didn't I just say "in the end" a paragraph ago?! :D), and this also is only my modest opinion, while military combat and LE experience are both of high value in our line of work, LE is probably a better preparation for the type of engagements we face, realistically.

[SonnyPI]

i'm going to nitpick on this part, with all due respect to mr. Pincus and geo (who, as both leo and instructor, probably knows what he's talking about). Ability can and has to be acquired, otherwise complacency will make us turn to the wimpy stuff.

Here's what i mean: I see a lot of people shy away from large handgun calibers (i'm talking .40 or .45 here, not .454 casull) or load their 12 gauges with reduced, so-called "tactical" loads. The thinking is precisely that placement comes first, so why "punish" yourself and risk missing? Overpenetration concerns are sometimes used as excuses, too, when we all know that misses are a lot more frequent and hazardous than through-and-throughs.

Maybe i'm wrong, but i think that this mentality derives from competition, where people will download their ammo to barely make a given power factor and have the maximum control. In games, a lot of shortcuts made in order to score can hurt a weapon's street-worthiness. I can tell you that it's very obvious in the 1911 world where guns sold as tactical models have parts and tolerances that belong on match guns. The extended mag catch, skeletronized trigger and match chamber i had (past tense!) on mine have no place on a carry piece, for example. I think that some shooters are as confused as the manufacturers. Not saying this is the case of the present company.

So personally, and this comes from a guy with a somewhat diminutive frame, not your typical humongous bullet-catcher (:o), i welcome the abuse on my end if i think the gun delivers on the other. Again, i'm talking duty-type caliber/ammo, not ridiculous hunting hardware.
Could i shave a few tens or hundreds here and there by going smaller? I'm sure, but i don't think it matters that much. I'm not that recoil-sensitive either, so maybe i'm lucky.

I wish i could find that exact jim cirillo quote, but i'll have to paraphrase from memory: This guy who definitely saw and took down the elephant a few times claimed that when you have to draw under fire from a determined felon, every petty consideration about how heavy or hard-kicking the gun is will evaporate and you'll instantly regret not having a .44 mag in your hand.
This is where i'm coming from when i say that when we need it, we'll need it bad. Clint smith's saying that a gun should be "comforting, not comfortable" also comes to mind.

So as long as we stay within reasonable parameters, which .45 or full-house 12 gauge certainly do, i think we should make the effort to shoot well the most potent rounds we can. I have no doubts that .22s or even .38s are a lot faster and easier to shoot, but i personally pass. If you make a beginner shoot those next to a .45, they'll probably like them better, but that's no reason for saying, "carry that, then".
Now if someone cannot hit well with a given caliber, they should gravitate to something else, sure, knowing that it will do its part if they do theirs. Most people in ep tend to be male and in great physical shape, though, and i would tell them to man up, but that's me. :devil2:

In the end, though, we're splitting hairs and we all know that "it's the indian, not the bow", that "a gun's a gun", and that skill, training and determination will carry the day, probably not (subjective) gear choices.
But then, those choices have to be made here, comfortably sitting at our keyboards where we can "bounce" our theories off other pros, rather than when it hits the fan (it will be too late!). So i think that all discussion is "a good thing". :)

finally (didn't i just say "in the end" a paragraph ago?! :d), and this also is only my modest opinion, while military combat and le experience are both of high value in our line of work, le is probably a better preparation for the type of engagements we face, realistically.

copy all!;)

[Lone Wolf]

Great points LT... You rock as usual...

[Local Talent]

Hey, thanks Wolf, and good to see that you can manage to chime in once in a while! :)

[RONIN]

glock 30sf small enough to hide, yet big enough to hold in your hand.. unlike many other "pocket" pistols and it uses a hard hitting caliber..

have one on me 24/7 stateside or overseas..

[Local Talent]

I used to own a S&W 649, aptly named "Bodyguard" for pocket carry. I wanted something snag-free, easily concealed, that could be fired from inside clothing, in a potent caliber, and that wouldn't malf in case of a contact shot or bad shooting position.
It was a bit too heavy (S&W makes lighter frames), but good in that role. It just didn't fit my new philosophy of caliber & platform consolidation (1911/.45 all the way).

As for the compact 1911s, providing one could find a perfectly reliable sample, I just didn't think they were appropriate for that BUG role. As much as I hate saying this, even a Glock makes more sense. This being said, I'd want something with a heavy trigger pull, personally.
And if the gun is going to be holstered at all times, I see no use in a compact, and that's why I'm betting on the 4.25" 1911s.

This thread shows well how we all have to find our own salvation.

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=135

[SonnyPI]

Daddy was an armorer, been shooting the ACP since 1962. Been carrying the ACP 45 LWC 4.25 barrel since 1978.
As a BUG I carry a Combat Master 45 3.5" barrel and most importantly they both use the same magazines. and both live comfortably in the Bianchi Black Widow, unless I am crusing the beach, then its thunderware to the rescue, lol

[Local Talent]

There are some great compact 1911s, and the Detonics (the original compact 1911) certainly is one. Familiar with the platform as I am, though, I wouldn't want to have to grab one in a hurry and flip the safety off inside a pocket, for example. I always felt that the larger the gun, the more inertia it has, and therefore the more impervious to fumbling and manipulations it is.

Thunderwear? Beach robber: "I said hands up so why you grabbin' yourself?!" :D Seriously, if that's no gun or in the speedo, I guess Thunderwear it is!

[RONIN]

LT i carry a glock for concealed carry.. no safetys except for my trigger finger.. stiff trigger pull..

now overseas, i have a ed brown custom 1911 in my thigh rig.. and 5 mags.. wouldn't be anything else.. bow to "john browning" for making one of the greatest pistols ever..

i have thought about buying a compact 1911 ie 4" or 3.5" but the ones i fired were not anything like a nice 5" gov..

hell even my days in the corps.. we used 1911s not the m9 which everyone else was issued.. just for the stopping power the 1911 has over the m9..

[CCW TRAINER]

Hey guys,

Been lurking a while..thought I'd add my 2 cents. I typically carry a S/A 1911 A1 (loaded model), with the Defense package from the S/A Custom Shop. I'm a PI and Firearms Instructor, and do not do that much EP work. I also have the TRP and Wilson CQB, but those are just too nice to carry daily.

For EP Details or Elevated Risk Investigations I often carry two Glocks, the 23 and the 27, for the same reasons mentioned in previous posts, regular capacity magazines work in either gun. :)

[Lone Wolf]

As I have previously stated my favorite is the P226 or the P220 Sig Sauers, but as of yesterday I also have found a new "favorite" pocket gun.. Its a Ruger LCP very compact and very accurate especially at close range... I'm loving it....

[Local Talent]

I don't know how you guys switch from one platform to another like that. They say it's just a matter of training, but I prefer to keep it simple - I got a one-track mind and I don't multi-task easily. :D

A Glock with a reasonably heavy trigger makes sense to me, the way a wheelgun does: point and shoot. No issue with that, and I suspect it's one of the reasons this platform has been so successful with LEAs.

In 1911s, and I agree with you RONIN in that Browning was a genius (how many other 100-year old designs are still competitive today?), Brown (my fave) and Wilson are pretty much tops. CCW TRAINER's Loaded tricked out by SA's excellent custom shop is a great choice too for carry.

The Sigs, I personally have no experience with. I know they're great, but I'm just not convinced by their control layout.

And iIn CA, with the 10-round limit on mags, I otherwise don't see too much incentive to go with double-stacks (unless you have pre-ban mags or are exempt).

In the end, as we always say, you gotta pick a platform that works for you, dedicate all the training you can to it, learn its quirks, and then the ball is in your court: the rest is all up to you, it's not so much a hardware thing.

[Lone Wolf]

LT like you said.. Its a matter of practice... I still personally prefer the Sigs.. My main weapon(s).. The LCP is a new found toy... I also love the old favorite Beretta 92 FS.. But hey.. One of you guys brought up a great point.. whats the point of having a double stack mag if you are only allowed to carry 10 rounds.. In that case I revert to the good ole Sig 220 8 rounds awesome weapon and very effective in its caliber... Reliable and easy to use.. Point aim squeeze... There are no safetys on the weapon there is a decocker and that is it.. Again as previously stated by another.. Keep the bugger stick off the bang switch.. (Finger off the trigger).. Effective accurate and well.. Very expensive actually.. The average price of one of the Sigs is between $600-$800 If you have money to burn there are others out there that are very nice as well ie LES BAER WILSON and a few others..

Bottom line is the weapon has to work for you.. Doesnt matter if it is a..
AHEMMMM High Point or a LES BAER.. If it works for you its what you should use...

OK Im ashamed of my self for even mentioning a High Point.. But please they exist and someone out there buys them otherwise they would not still be in business...

[Local Talent]

LT like you said.. Its a matter of practice... I still personally prefer the Sigs..
Yep, it is about the indian, not the arrow. There's a minimum level of quality of the firearm to meet, though, which the Sigs definitely do, while the Hi-Points... not so much! :D

The older I get, the more I'm convinced that there is no best anything, just different approaches to fit the various personalities, body-types, and situations. So it's up to the users to know themselves, do an honest and lucid assessment of their mission requirements, and to pick accordingly. Sometimes it can take a little experimenting, and discussions like these, rather than turning into "mine is better than yours", should focus on laying out the good and the bad so that people can make informed choices. I really like that we seem to manage just that on this forum.

I'll give you an example: I've said enough that I'm a 1911 guy. But some dismiss this gun because they don't want to mess with a manual safety or because of cost/maintenance concerns. Those concerns are valid in my view and these people should feel free to turn to other good designs - there are many.

I never shot a Sig, BTW, but got a chance to inspect a co-worker's once and was impressed by the build quality (I think it was an older German one... the gun!). I considered going that route twice, but relented, in part because of the decocker AND its unusual placement. I'm now simply sticking to the 1911 because:
1. It's a joy to shoot and carry,
2. That's what I know... :)

The Beretta 92, I do have experience with, and while I respect the platform, I must say that it's probably not the best adapted to EP/CCW. It's large, thick, and heavy (in spite of the alloy frame). And all that to only launch a 9mm round? With just a 10-round mag in Cali? I do know that the 96 is chambered in .40, but I doubt the longevity of the gun in that case (from what I've read). There's also the issue of the slide-mounted safety, just like on the older, metal Smiths.

I'll admit never giving the LCP too much thought. I pretty much dismiss small BUGs entirely and would only change if I became a deep-cover operative of some sort... To me, we only carry guns because of the possibility that we'll face deadly force and we'll then have to use same. If that wasn't the case, we would go unarmed because CCW is a pain, let's face it. So if I'm going toe to toe with the elephant one day, I just don't want to end up with a mouse gun in my hand. I dumped my (great) Smith Bodyguard for precisely that reason: it was way too tempting to just pocket that than pack a real gun. Too often, the BUG turns into the primary out of convenience. If you actually need a second or third piece that'll fit in a boot or vest pocket, sure, but they make those in 9mm and even bigger.

Back to the semi-custom guns for a moment, since Wolf brought them up, I think that there's a misconception out there (I've picked up hints in some posts and have heard it from noted instructors) that they're pretty (sissy) safe queens carried by wannabes who don't shoot and are trying to make up for something... That may be the case for some, but if one has the income, I'd say to go for it because that kind of money buys lots of peace of mind when it comes to reliability and durability. Loose guns only get looser. Cheap parts lose their properties and/or break. Ill-fitted guns don't feel and/or shoot right. Once you've shot a real nice gun, it's hard to go back to the rest, and I'm not talking as a snob. But that's almost purely a 1911 thing as most other platforms have a more uniform feel throughout the model line.

[Lone Wolf]

And again LT... I agree.. The right weapon is the right weapon for you doesnt matter who makes it or how much it cost. What does matter is that you can use it and are proficient with it. THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!!!! I never be little anyone for the type of weapon that they carry, it is way out of line in my book, I do comment on low end low quality firearms and advise people NOT to purchase them.

Me personally I dont like Glock.. BUT THAT IS MY OPTION.. The next guy may love and live by them... I would never intentionally knock a firearm in a professional manner... Bottome line.. IF IT WORKS IT WORKS!!!! Plain and simple....

[caprotection]

I too, do consider "combat lights" as weapons in that they'll blind opponents to give you the advantage... but you'll still need something like a 3D Maglite to then beat the crap out of 'em, and I think that was Zeami's point! :D

I'm surprised nobody said yet that the best weapon is between your ears. ;)
Then again, we're in the firearms section, so c'm'on guys, what do or would you like to carry for EP?
Someone is bound to think that 1911s are daddy's guns or that Mossbergs are cheap rattletraps, no?! :p Anybody likes working nuclear plants or what not with MP5s or M4s? Any hardcore wheelgun guys on here? Who prefers them Benellis or Remmy 1100s for rate of fire?
And what about all our European members: do you guys even have access to guns? How 'bout some exotic stuff you used in the service like a FAMAS or SA-80? Any questions about U.S. laws or tactics?

Let's hear it fellas! :)

surefire defender works great like you said for the blinding aspect but also it has medal groves at the end that you can defenatly use as a hand to hand tool. works great as a kabaton and legally its just a flash light so i dont know of a place where you cant carry it over seas other citys states doesnt matter

[Local Talent]

Yeah, that's true. It's a little gadgetty for me (like a swiss army knife, if you will), but I can see situations where it could be useful.

[Lone Wolf]

One thing to keep in mind here is that anything other than a firearm can and generally is construed as aggravated assault and battery.. If you strike a person with an object other than the "approved" devices you could be facing possible criminal charges... Just my .02 on it.. Food for thought...

[caprotection]

yes true but if you were in a situation where you needed it, you were most likel legal in that use.

[Local Talent]

I had in mind situations where someone tries to disarm you and you need to get their hand off your firearm. In that case there's no way you can be charged. Rolling on the ground with a suspect trying to kill them, some have pulled their knife to stab them, and that's kosher, like in these cases mentioned in our thread on blades: That's a negative here, and why I have so little interest in them, I guess. I see them only as hardly-ever-used tools, with only the very remote possibility of needing them in a defensive role. Not that it's never done...http://www.policeone.com/police-products/duty-gear/restraints/articles/1802978-Off-duty-Pa-officer-stabs-suspect-who-attacked-him-with-handcuffs/ :D

ETA: I remember a relatively recent case of an estate security guard (ex-LEO) who stabbed an intruder somewhere, but couldn't find it. While searching for it, I came across quite a few uses of "pocket knives" in self-defense, like this one: http://articles.latimes.com/2006/dec/08/local/me-stabbing8.
It might be a case of what happens when clients want unarmed security but are still the target of violence. No matter what, there's still gonna be blood on their expensive carpet. And that's a case for at least some edged weapons training...

Now if you use a SureFire Defender to inflict pain on someone because they're not listening to you... the liability aspect is there, for sure.

I know that besides the KISS principle, I avoid what I call "gadgets" to prevent the "mall ninja" stigma if I end up having to justify my use of force in court. I go with the most powerful, simple, and tried-and-true weapons and rely on determination first, skill second, and gear third. That's why I never got into the whole Kubotan thing (or pen-knives and the like). And as Wolf said, some may or may not be approved and it's hard enough to keep up with all that stuff.

Then again, I never dismiss the choices people make in the name of preparedness: when they face the elephant, I won't be there - they will. And some fights' outcomes hinge on little things. Some people would also rather win and ask for forgiveness after and it's hard to argue with.

[Lone Wolf]

yes true but if you were in a situation where you needed it, you were most likel legal in that use.

OH DONT GET ME WRONG.. If I needed it guess what... I would absolutely utilize every tool that I could lay my hands on to fight off an attack... I have used flash lights in the past and they are very effective weapons... They have the ability to incapicate person(s) for long periods of time... So oh yeah.. They make good weapons, I was just putting that out there as food for thought...

[Local Talent]

+1 Wolf. Forums are great to help people make informed decisions, so everything has to be on the table during discussions like this one.

I know I bend or break rules if necessary to get the job done or keep safe, but like to know where the line exactly is as not to be surprised by unexpected consequences.

[RONIN]

i have been gearing up for a overseas detail. one of my team members asked what handgun he should buy.. as many of you have said, "get what works for you".. which brought on a huge debate of what handgun is better then the other.. long story short it ended in him getting mad and stomping off..

dunno who was saying sigs, i know many guys who carry them.. but to me they just feel funny.. like a cross bred 1911/glock mess.. great gun, just feels funky to me. as many people that go from a 1911 to a glock say they hate the grip angle..

its all practice.. a real shooter can pick up any gun and fire it well.. just my two cents

ronin

[Local Talent]

[...]long story short it ended in him getting mad and stomping off..[...]
LOL! It's funny, I say the same thing to people and get the same results - they think I'm being less than candid, of course.
But as you say: [...]its all practice.. a real shooter can pick up any gun and fire it well..[...]
That's also my experience (as well as Lone Wolf's). In the end it mostly boils down to personal preference once you stick to the tried and true (decent service caliber and quality firearm).
But then we could stop at this and close the discussion, or have more fun and go for a 10-page thread (the conversation equivalent of which is exactly what your buddy was getting warmed up for, I suspect). :)

[Chingasos]

Favorite weapon I would have to say is my voice. Sometimes just talking to someone can de-escalate a situation. Secondary would be my body.

[RONIN]

lol but of course.. i was once told by a great kendo instructor, a weapon is an extension of you.. as is a firearm.. hate to sound zen monk but you must be one with your weapon.. as in don't go to the gun store and go.. that LOOKS cool i want it.. then buy it. as so many individuals tend to do.. find a weapon that works for you and stick too it.. use it, train with it.. so many people have bought guns.. for protection, yet NEVER go out and train wit it.. what good is a gun if you don't know how to use it??

[Local Talent]

[...] so many people have bought guns.. for protection, yet NEVER go out and train wit it.. what good is a gun if you don't know how to use it??
Yes, many people buy the "idea" of a firearm. They leave it unloaded and out of sight, but feel better because they took a step toward self-protection. Not! That's pure magical thinking. Very common among the sheep - totally unacceptable for us, as you say. We can't afford those delusions.

I like to think I got some zen in me. Monk, not so much... :D

[Local Talent]

Favorite weapon I would have to say is my voice. [...] Secondary would be my body.
Oh, me too, but in a completely different context! :D:D:D
(Wow, that post stumped me for a while, but I knew there was a comeback... :p)