Your Carry Pistol and Carry Style?? [Archive]

Mata-Leão

05-09-2009, 10:37 AM

Just curious what you guys are carrying, brand of holster and method of carry you use.

First off, I carry an H&K USP .45acp full size (12+1). Obtaining high capacity magazines in Costa Rica is not available, so I had to buy my 12 round mags in the states. I had no issues coming back through customs...thank goodness. I was not able to locate Hydra-Shok .45 here.

Monday - Thursday:
I am wearing a suit in which carrying in several different positions is very simple. I, like many of you, have blown serious money on various holsters. At this moment my preference is a Galco Fletch w/ thumb break holster. I carry just behind my right hip, but have the holster laced through my belt loops in a fashion that allows me to change/slide its position to my right side while driving.

Friday - Sunday:
I am in plain clothes and carry a custom Roper Holster IWB (inside waist band). Again, I carry just behind my right hip. It is a holster that Cecil Roper made specifically for me to ride a little higher than his normal IWB holsters. It is VERY thin and made of Ballistic Nylon. It has an internal skeletal structure of plastic that keeps the holsters shape. I have only TRIED the Blade-Tech IWB holster once, and still really like the Roper IWB holster. It only cost me 16 dollars I believe. If I was needing to re-holster my pistol on a frequent occasion, I would probably choose the Blade-Tech holster or some other kind of Kydex IWB.

For an extra mag carrier/holster, I carry a ballistic nylon Roper mag holder w/ Velcro closure that can be carried in the Horizontal position (my preference).

I used to carry a Sig Sauer P229 9mm and really enjoyed it. When I first got down here, I was looking for a Sig P226, the full size 9mm but the price was $1,700. Ouch! I was able to buy my HK USP from a private seller for only $1300 - which was a steal in this country. Just to give you guys an idea of how high the prices are, ANY GLOCK here is $1,300.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/HK.jpg

SCBA Admin

05-09-2009, 11:11 AM

I cant believe glocks are SOOO expensive down there...

How about the rest of the economy? How much is housing - rent - own - etc...

how about the price of food, gas, etc?

how is the health care system down there?

Is the american dollar strong?

(can you see i am doing some advance work? this would be a great section topic for advance work... hmmm)

Mata-Leão

05-09-2009, 11:50 AM

The normal guy here makes $400 dollars a month. Costa Rica lately has been ranked as the 2nd strongest economy in Central AND South America. 1st is Peru. The economy is only strong within the capital. Once outside the city, your average income will drop and the availability of general "things" and even jobs will become very sparse.

Housing to buy in a safe/gated community with a 24 hour guard service (which is more inadequate than a team of baboons) is going to be around 150,000 dollars. I live in one of these places and my rent is $1,200 a month. Electricity is around $80, and water is VERY cheap. Like, $6 a month.

My house is typical. Here are a few pictures to see what "typical" means:

This is the front of the house with the garage door up. Everyone has tile inside and out. Even in the garage. I love this aspect of the homes because you can really keep the floors clean. I despise carpet.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/frontright.jpg

This WAS my living room before I got couches, entertainment center and such. If it was up to me, I would still have Jiu-Jitsu mats in my living room. It is spacious. My home has 3 bedrooms (small) and 2 baths. If I was to buy it, it would cost me $160,000.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/livingroom.jpg

Food is very expensive compared to the prices of Wal-Mart. Even though, Wal-Mart owns most of the grocery stores down here. To make an educated guess, I would say that the normal price of food increase would be between 30% - 35%. Some items exceeding this. A REGULAR bag of Doritos Nacho Cheese will run you 4 dollars (not the super size...we don't have that stuff here). An 18oz jar of Jif Peanut Butter is about $5.85.

Last time someone did the math from liters to gallons and then from Colones (Costa Rican currency) to Dollars, it was about $4 dollars a gallon. I think it is closer to the low 3's now.

Health Care? HA! You have a VERY select few hospitals to choose from if you are interested in getting taken care of better than a Vet Clinic. On average for a surgery, it is said that the same surgery in the states will cost you 3 times more. So, many women from the states are getting plastic surgery here. The business of Medical Tourism is growing also.

Dentistry is very cheap and the best dentist I have ever had is a 24 year old girl here who works out of a single room and answers the telephone WHILE drilling on your teeth. That is nerve-racking.

American dollar fluctuates very frequently. It was 560 colones to 1 dollar two months ago but dropped to 517 to 1 dollar last week. I get paid in American Dollars and pure un-cut Colombian Cocaine...just kidding - I don't get paid in Dollars! haha.

It looks as though I, with the help of socalbodyguard, severely thread-jacked my own thread.

Mata-Leão

08-19-2009, 08:50 AM

Nice reply Stealth!

Your last statement, "The tactics evolve as the mission changes and mission objectives dictate tactics....

adapt, innovate, overcome

Prepare, Prevent, Protect

Recognize, Avoid, Counter" ...was very Sun Tzu, "Art of War" worthy. Nicely put.

Loved the "Turd World Country" comment! haha!

Nice to see input from such a highly experienced fellow, thanks!

So, what happened to Stealth, Socal?? Did he delete his account along with his posts?

Mata-Leão

08-20-2009, 09:48 AM

:eek:Wow Stealth!! Your are gorgeous! I mean, those breasts must get in the way some of the time and I am certain that...hold on...there are more pictures,

:confused:

Well, I was about to ask you to come back to Costa Rica - then I saw this Mercenary-like character sitting on some beach.

I must say, you don't look like the safest person to be locked in a closet with!:D

Beautiful sunsets here for sure. The only thing I would change about the beaches in Costa Rica are the rocks. Some beaches are rock free (like Playa del Coco in Guanacaste), but others are just inundated with rocks making it unpleasant for the feet. I was surfing in Dominical and fell onto a large hidden boulder in the water that cut my foot up quite bad.

Thanks for the pics stealth.

SaLami

08-25-2009, 05:23 PM

Call a broker. Tell them youre getting screwed around by your current carrier. You have a car, house, and a Jeep to be insured - what can you do.

Mata-Leão

08-26-2009, 10:09 AM

Call a broker. Tell them youre getting screwed around by your current carrier. You have a car, house, and a Jeep to be insured - what can you do.

*sigh* God...you are so RIGHT SaLami. I mean, I'm trapped in this financial pitfall of an insurance policy. I scream myself to sleep at night and shoot holes in the ceiling when I wake up.

Your post has empowered me to go forth and cancel my policy! When they ask why, I will tell them, "Life-Guru SaLami told me so..."

By the way SaLami...Is this YOU in the video below??

YouTube- Greatest freak out ever (ORIGINAL VIDEO)

Local Talent

09-24-2009, 11:51 PM

Well, I wasn't going to touch that one, as I had promised myself to keep weaponry specifics on a strict need-to-know basis. The whole world shouldn't know what I do and how. But seeing how I couldn't help copping to being a 1911 guy in another thread... :rolleyes:
So I'll give you my personal take on carry set-up in relatively general terms.

Firearms: for simplicity's sake, I limit my toys to one platform and one caliber. This way, no need for various mags, holsters, and training protocols. I picked what I believe to be the best all-around compromise for me, operating as an EP agent. Because it's all to easy to get lost in the what-ifs and far-fetched scenarios.

As far as other firearms are concerned, I don't know much about rifles or subguns (have fired a few), as I've never used them on the job.
I was issued a 12 gauge pump twice, though, and owned three. I absolutely LOVE shotguns and am partial to Mossbergs, but I'll leave my reasons for another thread.

Ammo: I also dropped all the "gimmicks" like dutch loads or frangible ammo - they're just attempts to solve software pbs with hardware. I use premium LE-grade HPs. The top ones are all pretty much the same, and I load what I happen to have at a given time.

In a shotgun, I'd go to buckshot or slugs, and no reduced ("tactical") loads, for the reason listed above (no gimmicks or over-thinking).

Holsters: that's where I do show flexibility in order to adapt to the various dress codes and circumstances we encounter on the job.
I've had to work in uniform, suits, casual wear, and even worked a detail where I was expected to play with the kids and jump in the pool upon request (dodged that bullet, thankfully...)!
So although the universally-recommended strong side belt rig is also my preference, I own OWBs, IWBs, and a shoulder rig on top of a number of fanny packs.

I favor leather for its natural retention capabilities (crucial without thumb break*), ability to keep its shape (unlike nylon), comfort and quietness (unlike kydex), and tradition/beauty (unlike anything else :)).
And I prefer horse hide for its rigidity and resistance to humidity. If I had dough to spare and wanted to pimp it up a bit, I'd go with shark, an even more resistant natural skin.
Now were I to work in a very hot/humid climate, like our friend Mata-Leão for ex., I'd probably turn to synthetic materials b/c leather rots. And in dusty environments, they can be washed, a necessity.

*I keep a few rigs with thumb breaks for exposed carry (uniform) and training courses that mandate them. Otherwise, all my gear (except the darn gun packs!) is picked with speed of presentation in mind.
That would be a topic for a "tactics" thread, but IMHO, speed is paramount for us civvie defenders. Weapons will not be produced until the very last moment, so they'd better come out fast. And we purposely avoid trouble and confrontations (never worked clubs and won't), so I'm not losing much sleep over retention issues.

There. That's where I'm at, but it's only one man's opinions. A lot of that stuff is of course of a very personal nature.
I try not to judge others too much, but when I do, it's not based on their equipment choices as much as on how they use it.

Mata-Leão

09-25-2009, 09:37 AM

So, Captain 'Never Happy' - I pulled it out of you, thanks for sharing!!;)

As far as ammo goes, I am about to purchase some Black Hills HP from Cabelas and have someone in the states ship it to me in CR since quality ammo here is very limited and the same price as a baby unicorn.

Man, holsters absolutely demand a flexible outlook. I have owned many different holsters and re-sold them after I found out they just did not function well for me. I have owned two shoulder rigs and gotten rid of both. One Galco rig and one kydex rig. I still prefer to carry on my hip.

I also have a 'fanny-pack' and use it frequently BECAUSE...here in Costa Rica, you see fanny packs like crazy. This is good for me. In the states, when you see a guy with a fanny pack and you can identify that it is packing some weight, he is 'strapped' - as our brothers in Compton and Detroit say. So, in CR, you see fanny packs on 7 out of 10 guys.

My preference is to get the highest possible ride holster that is available. I am considering getting the Galco Silhouette ll for my Sig p226, but I am also looking at some other custom holster makers that have some interesting ideas on high ride holsters that lean TOWARDS your body. But those holsters can cost 90+ dollars and I always like buying items of that nature based on user reviews.

Here is the holster - for those of you who don't exactly know how to judge what would be high ride, super high ride and what would be normal, look at the trigger guard placement in relation to the belt.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/galcoholster.jpg

I have a BlackHawk CQC w/ Serpa retention that I like very much AFTER I altered the holster greatly to ride higher. I should make a separate thread just for this. The BlackHawk holsters are good for exposed carry and the range, but to conceal that bad boy is difficult. Not only does it sit low, it hangs out.

I have never touched a Shark skin holster LT, but the price must reflect superb quality. Over $200 :eek:

After looking at Wilson Combat's custom leather shop, I am sold that they are producing the finest holsters in the world. Those holsters are DIVINE! I would guess that if God had his CCW, He would use a Wilson Combat Custom Holster.

Like this one:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/wilsonholster.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/wilsonholster1.jpg

(we really have baby unicorns here)

Local Talent

09-25-2009, 12:07 PM

You illustrate well how there's no universal answer when it comes to rigs.
Too many factors are personal - climate, dress code for your particular locale (as you pointed out with FPs), type of work and threat level (try IWB while wearing armor), body types (no IWB with "love handles", no shoulder rigs for barrel-chested guys), drawing technique, etc.

To show you how different people are, I dislike high-ride rigs: they cause me to lift my elbow uncomfortably high for a draw. So for exposed carry, I like a low-ride (that I find faster as well), and for CCW, I switch to IWB to prevent the slide from showing under short over-garments.
Degree of cant is another area where people's tastes vary wildly.

So a good rig is one that works for you and your situation, period.
But generally speaking, you should expect to spend $80-100 minimum.
And since you mentioned Galco, I'm no hater b/c, being a holster factory, they have a HUGE selection and have a widely distributed and available product. A clear advantage if you don't want to wait for the 6 months to 2 years that custom makers usually require...
BUT, what you get is a mass-produced rig at the same price (if not more) as the real good stuff. Over-hyped and -priced, IMO.

What is the good stuff? Well, in no particular order so as not to hurt anyone's feelings, you owe yourself a look at Milt Sparks, Mitch Rosen, Lou Alessi, Matt Del Fatti, Horseshoe Leather (Andy Arratoonian, GB) and Alex Nossar (Peru).
Nossar might be more easily available for someone operating in South America; I'm not sure. But some of the masters above have stocking dealers like Brownells, Dillon, Lightning Arms Sports, etc., and that makes them easy to get and with little to no wait for us stateside.

I'm also partial to Kramer leather in good part b/c they're horsehide specialists. Others, like Ken Null, Tauris, High Noon, Bullman, Brommeland, or Andrews, have also a great rep. and following, but I have no personal experience there.

Most bodyguards, esp. those with a LE background, are much more familiar with Galco, Aker, Gould & Goodrich, Don Hume, Safariland, De Santis, Bianchi, etc.
Their products are mass-produced, with price-cutting shortcuts (metal clips, screws, plastic) and therefore affordable enough for .gov contracts or to ride on most cops' belts, but they're a little lacking in quality (materials & execution). They're often copies of the masters' designs.
Serviceable stuff, though - I don't wanna sound like a snob.

I'd take a complete pass on Uncle Mike's and Fobus. ;)

Wilson, since you mention him, is not a holster maker. He just buys from them (I've read a couple of decent names, but can't remember which), like Dillon Leather is actually Rosen's. So it's good stuff, but over-priced and I'm not impressed.

On the ammo you mentioned, Black Hills aren't issued on a wide scale to LEAs stateside (for handgun use, and AFAIK), but they're known for their high quality, consistency, and accuracy. :cool:

OK, I'll break out some pics for ya...
You'll spot a Sparks Summer Special, Rosen Premier, and even Galco Explorer (very decent).

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=48

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=46

http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=45

Local Talent

09-25-2009, 03:26 PM

Mata-Leão

09-25-2009, 03:35 PM

And God don't need no stinkin' CCW to exercize His Self-given right, but if He's packin', I'll venture that He probably skinned a baby unicorn Himself to make His own rig... :D
A 1911 rides in it, of course... :p

:DHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!:D

I wasn't ready for that. PETA is going to be all over you like cheap perfume! Haha.

Man, I have to get back to work here in the next 30 minutes and don't have time to adequately respond to your very compelling recent posts. Thanks for sharing...enjoy your Friday evening.

Local Talent

09-25-2009, 04:13 PM

25
You too, man. And stay safe.

Mata-Leão

09-26-2009, 09:40 AM

What is the good stuff? Well, in no particular order so as not to hurt anyone's feelings, you owe yourself a look at Milt Sparks, Mitch Rosen, Lou Alessi, Matt Del Fatti, Horseshoe Leather (Andy Arratoonian, GB) and Alex Nossar (Peru).
Nossar might be more easily available for someone operating in South America; I'm not sure. But some of the masters above have stocking dealers like Brownells, Dillon, Lightning Arms Sports, etc., and that makes them easy to get and with little to no wait for us stateside.

I'm also partial to Kramer leather in good part b/c they're horsehide specialists. Others, like Ken Null, Tauris, High Noon, Bullman, Brommeland, or Andrews, have also a great rep. and following, but I have no personal experience there.

Most bodyguards, esp. those with a LE background, are much more familiar with Galco, Aker, Gould & Goodrich, Don Hume, Safariland, De Santis, Bianchi, etc.
Their products are mass-produced, with price-cutting shortcuts (metal clips, screws, plastic) and therefore affordable enough for .gov contracts or to ride on most cops' belts, but they're a little lacking in quality (materials & execution). They're often copies of the masters' designs.
Serviceable stuff, though - I don't wanna sound like a snob.

I'd take a complete pass on Uncle Mike's and Fobus. ;)

EXACTLY the information I wanted to see. Huge thanks. I would rather spend 100+ bones on an incredible holster rather than waste $150 on three holsters that I dislike.

That's funny how you can appreciate a low ride so much and I can appreciate a high ride more than anything. It also comes down to body style, dress style and where you personally wear your pants.

Holster availability for me is not really an issue since I can buy it there in the States, have it shipped to a friends house, and then him take it out of its original package and send it my way via ship...NOT AIR. If it is in a box that presents itself as a new item purchased from a company, I will get taxed. If it is sent via AIR, I will get taxed. But, if I have patience and send it in a plain brown box on a ship (ports out of Miami) with a particular company here, they just pass the box to me without trying to tax me. Sometimes it takes 3 weeks to get here, but I am not subject to some horrendous import tax and handling fee.

For instance - I shipped two pillows from Wal-Mart . com to CR that cost $16 shipped. For me to get them out of the import agency here, it cost me 18,000 colones. Which right now is, $30.92. That money went to CR and the agency for me to pick up two pillows that cost HALF of my import charges. Next time I pay them money for an item, there will be a middle finger attached to the cash.

I wanted to try Black Hills since the price is very good for a quality ammo. When I had my Remington 700 .308, the Black Hills BTHP gave me some seriously tight groups. I have recently seen them grouped together along with Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, Hornady T.A.P and Sierra in comparison charts. This is kind of a stamp of approval to me. I just want it to feed perfectly and go bang every time.

If this was a perfect world, we would all be shooting Wolf ammo anyway.:D:D

Thanks for the awesome pics. Very cool shots. Looks as though you might be an Ed Brown fan. I have never tried to carry a shoulder rig in the vertical position - only horizontal. Maybe this is why I did not like it. Although, that 1911 there is quite slim compared to the Thompson Contender I was trying to carry.:mad:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/ebbylyn/TC.jpg

:p:p:p:p

Local Talent

09-26-2009, 12:27 PM

I would rather spend 100+ bones on an incredible holster rather than waste $150 on three holsters that I dislike.
Well, expect some trial-and-error no matter what... We all have that drawer full of holsters!
One way to limit the damage is to peruse gun forums. They all love to discuss pros and cons of guns, gear, & ammo ad nauseam.
But eventually, you have to make the plunge yourself. Sometimes a rig feels great when you put it on, and it's only after a few hours or days that issues crop up. Most guys re-sell their stuff on eBay and don't take too much of a hit if they bought quality.

I never used Black Hills, but this ammo has excellent accuracy reports in rifles. For handguns, and in .45, I completely agree with this:
I just want it to feed perfectly and go bang every time.
Terminal performance should be adequate, no matter what. When I feel like splitting hairs, I look at bonded/non-bonded, +P/reg. pressure, flash-suppressed powder, etc. See gun forums for endless and academic discussions on this.
But there really is no bad choice is this caliber, if you don't go lighter than 185 gr. anyway.
I'm pretty sure that your HK eats anything, BTW - with 1911s, there's a little more testing involved before trusting ammo, though. :)

The vertical shoulder holster is slower on the draw. If ya want speed, like I normally do, you go horizontal or upside-down. But the thing is, those things are slow and awkward regardless, and have only very limited use for me.
The skinny bastard that I am prefers vertical for concealment and retention issues. You'll notice on the pic that I took off the retention strap - even w/o it, the gun is held very securely, due to gravity and a strong spring. I'd be constantly checking on a horizontal one and afraid that the gun would fall out.
Galco and Alessi are among the few still selling that style, and an Alessi Fieldmaster would have been about 2 years away, I was told at the time. So with Galco, I got a rig and accessories (like that quad pouch they made for the sandbox and I keep for SHTF days) in a couple of weeks. Mass-produced leather does have its advantages.

And a Brown fan I am, but it's too much $$ for me in a work gun. All guns are work guns, AFAIC. It's actually a Dan Wesson in the pics.

It seems that your situation ain't that bad in CR. There's a guy posting from Guatemala on 1911forum.com, and boy, is it another story... I don't think he can even receive anything from the U.S.. The pkgs would be opened and the merch stolen anyway... :(

Exec_protect

04-16-2011, 08:46 PM

My favorite carry weapon is the humble G19(3rd generation). I can conceal it while wearing shorts and a t-shirt while working out. Wearing casual clothing or suited I always carry appendix inside the waist band. I can draw from concealment incredibly fast from this position(although I must admit that it took a while to get used to carrying at th3 1 o'clock position) whether standing or seated.

I find that wearing a gun on your hip leaves you more vulnerable to being "made" by the accidental or intentional "bump frisk"(I learned this the hard way). The only person who should ever bump frisk me at the 1 o'clock position is my wife.:)

I have a variety of holsters but I have grown fond of Kydex/leather mixes. The Supertuck by Crossbreed and the inexpensive kholster suit my needs currently. I particularly like the way the firearm snaps into position and stays there without needing a thumb break.

Local Talent

04-16-2011, 10:07 PM

I've tried appendix-carry and quite like it too for speed and retention. The point about bumps is very valid too. Two problems I see with it, though, are:

1. The gun has to be covered by a T- or sweat-shirt, or worse, a tucked-in shirt, to be concealed. So when dressed more formally, you have to move the gun from 1 to 3 or 4 o'clock, and I personally prefer to stick to the same spot for muscle memory.

2. When sitting, the muzzle is too often pointed at something I'm not willing to destroy, when it's not squarely shoved in there with a long barrel.

So in my view it's a method of carry most appropriate for CCW holders who always dress casual and carry compacts, not so much for pro gun-toters, especially with service-sized weapons.

I used to really liked the gun at 4 or 4:30, but as I'm getting older, and my waist rounder (:eek:)... I'm moving it more to 3 o'clock, and would even bring it in more if concealment was not at stake.

Exec_protect

04-17-2011, 06:40 AM

My reply to Local Talent:

1. With modern holster design successful appendix carry can be achieved while wearing casual clothing or business attire without sacrificing speed of presentation. Sticking to the same method is easier than taking the time to re-educate your muscles, but I found the advantages to be worth the effort.

2. If carrying a gun in any position causes you to fear then maybe you are not the "pro gun toter" you think you are. No mechanism can replace a trained and educated trigger finger. Unless you are carrying a flint lock pistol, modern firearms require pressing the trigger to fire.

Calling appendix carry a method suited only for ccw holders and not suited for "pro gun toters" is a very arrogant view that is typical of some "old timers" with the "that's the way we have always done it" mentality that will prevent you from learning new methods and techniques because they are different and different is scary.

Mata-Leão

04-17-2011, 06:52 AM

Exec_protect: Adequate reading comprehension is paramount.

Exec_protect

04-17-2011, 07:27 AM

Exec_protect: Adequate reading comprehension is paramount.

^^I do not know what you are referring to. I gave an opinion and responded to Local Talents direct reply/criticism. My reading comprehension skills are just fine. Perhaps you need to read my initial post, Local Talent's reply and my rebuttal before you remark on something you misunderstand.

Mata-Leão

04-17-2011, 07:55 AM

^^I do not know what you are referring to. I gave an opinion and responded to Local Talents direct reply/criticism. My reading comprehension skills are just fine. Perhaps you need to read my initial post, Local Talent's reply and my rebuttal before you remark on something you misunderstand.

Way too edgy for me. Enjoy the forum.

Exec_protect

04-17-2011, 09:06 AM

Way too edgy for me. Enjoy the forum.

Excuse me for defending my position, but after your previous remark you should expect some push back. If you have been in this business for any amount of time your skin would be a little thicker. I seriously doubt I will be posting here any more so good luck to you all.

Local Talent

04-17-2011, 09:38 AM

Wow. That's a first here. I sure hope you take a deep breath , read the past few posts one more time and reconsider, Exec_protect.

To expand on my PM to you, I'd like to say that while one cannot be expected to read every post of every thread of every forum that one decides to participate in, it does help to get at least a feel for the way people interact and where they're coming from. Because the written word has a way of being misinterpreted.

So whether you decide to stick around or not, I'll state again in the interest of everyone (given the amount of posting I do) that: I'm just a working bodyguard, no more, no less. I have no company or course to promote, so my opinions are just that, no pitches nor agendas. I also don't have a huge ego either and have been around long enough to realize that nothing in this world is "one-size-fits-all".
My intention when posting is always to share a point of view, encourage others to do the same (with a hopefully different one) and therefore help readers come to their own truth. I don't get off on being right or arguing. If it comes across that way, well I don't know what to tell you, except maybe lurk a little more before posting.

All this to say that there's no need for defensiveness because I comment on a post or respond with a different take. It's never an attack and I'm always glad to see new posts and new opportunities for dialogue.

In your intro, Exec_protect, you stated being here to learn and contribute, so I certainly hope that you do follow through on both counts. In too many forums, I see people come to impose their views, and they get really mad and resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees. This is ego-boosting posting and nothing else.

@ Mata-Leão: sorry about the hijack, bro. I'll get back to the topic in my next post.

Local Talent

04-17-2011, 10:39 AM

And now in response to post #18, specifically:

1. I did not say that one should stick to the same method forever. In fact, I specifically commented on my progressive move from far back (long arms, skinny) to the 3 o'clock position. People evolve, just as technology and shooting technique do.
Yes, I'm old school and conservative, so I don't jump on every new fad, but anybody who's half serious about anything can't stay stuck in the past.

What I did say, is that, just as it is considered smarter to stick to one shooting platform at a given time, one should stick to the same general gun position on the body at a given time.
Most LEOs carry on the belt, strong side when in uniform, and do the same thing when plain-clothed. It's common knowledge and common sense, and it's about muscle memory under stress.
Once they retire, they may get a snubby or baby Glock and go for pocket, or fanny pack, or whatever (it's their call), but they should then stick to the new method.

With "muscle memory", I didn't want to suggest I was too lazy or old (thank you, BTW) to learn new tricks. I meant that if you carry at 1 o'clock when off-duty or about town under a sweatshirt, your hand may have trouble finding 3 or 4 o'clock when you're in a suit on the job.

I believe it's a rookie mistake to change the placement of the gun depending on dress or circumstance, just like it's a mistake to carry a 1911 in a shoulder rig, a Beretta 92 on the belt, and a Glock on the ankle, all with different action types, calibers, and safety mechanisms.
But that's my belief and I'm only stating it to make people think twice of all the angles. beyond that, it's a free country. I do know some pros who do just that, and if they can make it work... more power to them. A rookie unsure about which way to go, or doing research should be exposed to all takes, though.

The part about carrying at 1 o'clock in business attire... I don't get. For us it means an open 2-piece suit. Only way to conceal then is to tuck the shirt over the gun. I'm not being disingenuous at all when I say that I don't see how holster design can help with speed in that case, when compared to a traditional pancake or even IWB rig at 3 or 4 o'clock. It also takes TWO hands to present a gun from concealment from under garments, if you want to claim speed, anyway.

2. The fear thing, now. I'm no safety nazi. You obviously didn't read my posts on flagging myself when debussing over an SUV's center console during AOP drills or doing a roll while training with an Israeli company: my muzzle covering my body is the last thing on my mind when "under fire" or even in a hurry. I trust my equipment and I trust myself. I respect firearms, but I don't fear them - a simple SoCal freeway trip is scarier to me!
BUT, just as I swear like a drunk sailor in "real life"... this is a forum. We don't know who reads us. Actually, if you spend enough time here, you'll notice that many inexperienced people read us. So I try to be responsible and not recommend the less than safe or smart things I do.

Otherwise, that confidence in the fact that the gun won't go off unless the trigger is pulled is your right, but it can be overstated, I feel, "proper" holster and technique notwithstanding. Things happen in real life. Glock guys are familiar with windbreaker cords scares (;)), like 1911 guys are with thumb safeties coming undone.
Appendix-carry, no matter how you slice it, does violate one of the safety rules and there's no way around it. Doesn't give me nightmares, but I like people to know.

And on the reading comprehension thing Mata was referring to: I clearly stated liking appendix-carry, for the exact reasons that you mentioned. And I clearly stated that my reservations were "in my view" (emphasized!).

I would definitely prefer you to explain (not saying you can't!) how you manage to work all EP assignments carrying in the manner you favor, or how instructors let you draw from that position when on their range, or maybe how timed draws from concealment in the appendix and classic (old school) 3-4 o'clock methods compare... than to take offense because I raised questions, and respond with calling me an arrogant old timer who won't learn new tricks.
It's not the "new" part as much as the "trick" one that bothers me, to be honest. I've tried a lot of stuff and don't believe in any one-size-fits-all approach. But I do believe in warning people of all potential issues.

I'll finish this long response with an example: I own a shoulder rig and fanny packs. I like them for some uses where they really shine. But they also have shortcomings and present such training risks that they're banned from most ranges. You'll never hear me make fun of anyone carrying in those, but if they say it's the bees' knees, you'll again see me chime in with the caveats. Same thought process and no ill intent on my part.

Local Talent

04-18-2011, 09:31 AM

And a clarification on my choice of the "pro gun-toters" phrase that seems to have rubbed Exec_protect the wrong way... Here's how I see it: people who carry a firearm for a living, such as LEOs, government agents, and private security personnel, don't make the same equipment choices as those who simply exercize their 2nd amendment rights.

Most civilians/CCW holders end up carrying only when they feel the "need" for it, guns that are small enough to be comfortable in daily activities, and very little extra ammo, if any. They normally don't expect trouble, will only defend themselves and their loved ones, and will run from bad situations if they can. They can pick any type of unconventional weapon, carry mode, and ammo, and are only limited by law.

Of course it's a generalization, but from what I hear it's a rather fair one.

WE don't have the same mission. Even if not forced by company policy to use certain holster or weapon types, we tend to gravitate towards what is in use by police. We (and our clients) expect to be targeted by violent and armed criminals and are liable to engage, even while covering and evacuating. So we need speed, power, reloads, and reliability from equipment that is safe and green-lighted at every training course.

You just don't (usually) carry for an escort like you do to go get some milk. There's some overlap, but I'm convinced that criminals carry differently ("mexican" or pocket) than civvies (any legal way), who carry differently than what I called "pro gun-toters" for short (like The Man).

Just this man's opinion, as I often say, so feel free to discuss and/or challenge.

Dhernandez2319

05-04-2011, 08:58 AM

Gentlemen,

I have never been apart of an organization like this except E.S.I. network. In 20+ years I have seen my share of spats... But nothing like this. LT, is one of the most respected agents I know here on the forum. He would never, personally, attack anyone if any shape or verbally abuse anyone here. I have been assisted by him and only him in the past when I needed a question answered. With some back up from the Admin and one other individual. If fact he offered time to go thru my resume to assist in making a lot stronger. The fact remains he offers his personal time for all of us to be able to understand issues which some of us broken down. When I saw the initial post I thought is was going to be a simple conversation. Gentlemen If you have been apart of the Military or Some sort of Law Enforcement then you should understand discipline and understand that nothing is meant by what is replied but it should be used as a learning tool. " Thicker Skin" is an understatement. LT. Doesn't need defending but I feel that the verbal attack on him at this moment is unwarranted and with out cause. I would now and at anytime work with him and take point for him because much like me he is a man of honor....Something allot of Bodyguards lose just to be in the spot light. LT anytime anywhere i got your 6...For those others who felt offended you always have Omni International Bodyguard network to go to. let see how far that takes you. We do what we do not for the glory. Before you all decide to batter my response gentlemen ask yourself this....."Did you chose the fifth profession or did it chose you?" When you answer please don't post it...Its your answer. "Honor is a gift a man gives himself" and it is dearest to me then my life....LT I thank you for all your help. You deserve more respect then this especially since you're give out free advice to anyone who needs it. And without a thank you. It really pisses me off when someone goes this far .... Thank you

David R. Hernandez Certified Protection Specialist
E.S.I.
Los Angeles , CA

Dhernandez2319

05-04-2011, 08:59 AM

I did forget LONEWOLF, He's a Library of knowledge as well

Local Talent

05-04-2011, 09:30 AM

For those others who felt offended you always have Omni International Bodyguard network to go to.
Ouch! lol

Hey, thanks a bunch for the kind words, Dave - I'm not sure I deserve all the praise, but you're right that I don't come here to fight and argue. I should probably have added that Exec_protect and I have exchanged PMs, and are cool, BTW.

If you go to enough forums, you'll notice a guy or two trying to be the "big fish in the small pond" in each board section. These internet "experts" (I met some in the field and was... less than impressed) clearly post to prop up their egos. It's because I was beginning to be concerned that members could see me as that type (and either be too intimidated to post or too respectful of my opinions) that I responded in so many words.

And I agree with you that a thick skin is a requirement, in general and in our line of work in particular!

It's so easy to misconstrue someone's posts that it's always a good idea to lurk enough time to get a feel for a particular board's atmosphere. Otherwise it's human nature to try and read between the lines... and we all know what assumptions get you. :)

But enough about this... too few members have shared their take on this topic! I'm sure that some are holding back for PERSEC reasons, but we can still debate the pros & cons of various systems and carry modes.

Rock

05-04-2011, 11:12 AM

Well, wasn't that very exciting!

Good times. Hey, everyone takes N.O. Explode and types once in a while. It is what helps the world go round. FWIW, I would have liked to hear the response to appendix carry in a suit. On details, those are the kinds things that make some go WTF? I can see it in shorts and understand the drawback exec_protec brought up. But other than casual I can't see it, not that it doesn't work for him.

I also agree with sticking to the same caliber, or keeping with a few of the standards depending on needs. It makes economical sense first off and you dont have run around looking for 10mm in the middle of nowhere.

I find it interesting that some details have guys carrying different weapons/calibers etc. Nightmare waiting to happen if you ask me..."Dude Im out! Pass me a mag!" "I'm shooting a .38 super!" "What?!!!" Not good times and it still happens.

I also agree that for the most part, setting a spot for your weapon and keeping it there is the fastest, most accurate way to draw. When we move the spots around we generally have to practice it out of our systems and that can take a long, long time. If you dont practice when you change you are wrong.

An exception to the position change rule is if one is driving. For that a clip on cross draw works well as it keeps the weapon in place, allows use of the seatbelt to keep the driver in place as well as allows easy/low profile access and can be removed quickly when exiting the vehicle for other duties.

Another benefit of the cross draw/position change is that your main pistol remains in position, but the seat belt and seated position generally prevent you from drawing quickly without some serious spondulics. It is a right pain in the ...(something that is painful) trying to do it from concealed as well. If when in the seated restrained position you always go for your cross draw, mentally the transition is easier. Unrestrained, as in seated at a table, again, it is just like standing. (It is late where I am I hope that made sense!)

I am a big fan of Blade-tech Tek-lok molded holsters made for light attachments for high risk area. Retention is not much of a concern because most people are at a distance and the weapon is a secondary.

For primary carry, no light attachment as the holsters just look gigantic for even mid sized Glocks. (Big Glock fan too, not as in I like big Glocks, but as in I like Glocks, moving on...). Leather IWB holters with a retention strap work as do normal strong side holsters. Retention straps are necessary especially because of close proximity to crowds. Obviously it doesnt have to be level III or whatever.

Practice, practice, practice! How many times have you seen a guy on the range with his retention strap open on his holster? Dude! Button up. "Oh, Im working on my speed" "Wrong answer..."

Admittedly this is the first time I have heard clock positions used to identify holster positions.

Good talk! We'll see you out there!

Local Talent

05-04-2011, 12:36 PM

Hey, everyone takes N.O. Explode and types once in a while. It is what helps the world go round.
Dunno about that! If someone can't keep their cool when sitting comfortably at their computer, or take a breather before writing words that won't go away... how are they gonna react when some moron is in their face calling them names and challenging them to a fight? To me everything is a test...
Thanks for injecting a little perspective, though.
Disclaimer: Please note that I'm in no way correcting you, Rock, merely expressing my entirely subjective opinion! :D :devil2:

More seriously, I think you're right about the necessity to change the position of the gun in some specific situations, such as when driving. It's one of those compromises we have to make and train for.
The changes throughout the day to accommodate dress, assignment, weather, etc. are probably a recipe for trouble (I know I'd get confused for sure).

I also think your point about the need for a commonality of equipment is valid in general. But it doesn't apply much stateside, I think. Everybody brings their own, privately-owned gear and guns to the details. Some companies have lists of accepted weapons, but I think that if they want to impose standards they have to bite the bullet and issue guns, not lists.
And the reality is that in the great majority of domestic operations, where it's already unlikely that someone will discharge his weapon, it would be a real bad day if several guys had to fire AND reload, to the point of having to pass around mags.
In theory, it's possible, of course, but imagine working for company A and getting a Glock 23 because that's what they use, then going to an event for company B and gearing up with a 229 in .357 for that, and then landing a P/T in-house gig where the team leader is a 1911 nut, while still working for company C...
Many times you meet guys in the field, pre-event, that you have never worked with before, and you have no idea what their weapons skills or capabilities are. Just the way it is.

Dhernandez2319

05-04-2011, 04:04 PM

True Lt...So True. If your training is such that you have never gone to retrain and you rely solely on that, chances are you'll freeze in a firefight anyway....Bottom line is regardless of your shooting ability if you lose your cool ...we then my friend you already lost.....Take it from a hot head like me. You not only lose face value with your team members , you lose it with the client and that's how you rarely get work. So remember check the attitude at the door because contrary to popular belief someone else is always better then you....and they are ready to pounce on your contract. It's the nature of the beast.
As for the repositioning of my weapon in plain cloths..not sure if I've done that...I'd forget and that split second is all it takes .....

Rock

05-05-2011, 12:35 AM

Disclaimer: Please note that I'm in no way correcting you, Rock, merely expressing my entirely subjective opinion! :D :devil2:

Aaaarrrghhh! FLAME Activate! Haha!

I'm good man.

More later.

Rock

05-05-2011, 01:16 AM

Great thing, we can all share here and learn what works for some and of course some things we will never do.

Im with you regarding the common gun issue domestically. And yes if guys are out of ammo it is a very bad day, but that is what we train for right? However, and this is moving into the gear for the mission thread, but the gear should be designed for the mission, not the other way around. "My TL/DL is a .45 nut doesnt cut it." Of course the reality is it is the other way around. I normally require some sort of articulation as to "why" just my cynical self combined with experience. As we get to know guys on details and their capabilities equipment and methods we can plan to show up with similar equipment.

Great discussion.

Rock

05-05-2011, 04:07 AM

In theory, it's possible, of course, but imagine working for company A and getting a Glock 23 because that's what they use, then going to an event for company B and gearing up with a 229 in .357 for that, and then landing a P/T in-house gig where the team leader is a 1911 nut, while still working for company C...

I think that is the point and is why we post is it not? To further the professionalism of the industry and those in it by sharing our experiences and learning from others?

If I have to be/get proficient in a number of platforms to stay employed, be proficient, so be it.

The reality is if there is a requirement to be armed everyone should be proficient in weapons handling marksmanship and thought processes surrounding them regarding personal protection. At the end of the day it is a less than 1% skill ( skill used less than 1% of the time) that requires 25% maintenance. However, the responsibility liability associated with is obviously huge.

Our number one technique should be avoidance, however, if armed and avoidance is not an option, deterrence is next, after that it is a whole different ball game. My opinion: If there is a requirement to be armed, be prepared for the worst, because that is what we are paid for. Needing armed personnel to parade around is not my cup of tea. But we can get into risk/threat and client service later....

Local Talent

05-05-2011, 10:33 AM

Yes, we've changed the topic from "what's your favorite weapon & carry mode" to "should a given detail influence those choices?", but it's OK, we've been known to digress around here... :D

OK, I wasn't saying that one should keep blinders on and only stick to what they know and like. I've actually stated the exact opposite elsewhere, explaining that I often rent guns out of curiosity and even qualify with them to spice things up a bit. We should all be familiar with most current platforms, that's a given. You never know when you're going to have to use someone else's weapon in a pinch, even if it's one taken from an adversary.
What I meant was that, realistically, it would become cost-prohibitive to own or purchase the gun/caliber that any company or detail we work for uses. Lemme explain...

In CA (I don't know where you operate, so bear with me), whether we carry exposed or concealed, we have to maintain an exposed firearms permit listing the calibers we qualified for. Then we requal every 6 months. Now to CCW we have to get a separate permit that lists firearms by S/N on top of the other permit. CCW restrictions vary, but some agencies don't allow more than 3 weapons on the permit.
So concretely, if you have a Glock 21, a Beretta 92, and a S&W 442 on your CCW, you cannot carry anything else concealed AND you have to qualify for the .45 ACP, 9mm, and .38 for the exposed permit (every 6 months, with the associated costs).

Many guys who start working armed get all the calibers they can on their permit to be as marketable as possible. I did it and trust me, it gets old and costly, especially when companies want to pay armed guards $11 and EP agents $15.
I don't know whether it's still their policy, but GDBA used to require their agents not only to be qualified for the .40, but also to buy a gun from an approved list. So the guy from my CCW example above would have to add the caliber on his BSIS permit AND have one of his guns removed from his CCW to add one that GDBA "likes" instead for the privilege of working for them.
And some prospective employers tell you to get a given caliber on your permit before offering you a job! Ah, the joys of an employer's market...

Look, at the beginning of your career, you're desperate to prove yourself and be given a chance, and... that's exactly how young actresses end up on Hollywood couches. :eek: But after a while your attitude changes to "here's my resume and creds; call me if you're interested; I'll bring my tools; thank you".
Sure for a great job, on a multi-man detail, and with a long-term potential, it would be a smart investment to get the weapon/caliber combo that the team uses. A gun's a gun - who cares? But IME, most companies book you, whether to work alone or within a detail, based on personality, permits held, training, experience, and availability... NEVER on what gun or how many reloads you carry. That's micro-managing.

Worse, the companies that spec a given weapon/caliber usually do so for the wrong reasons or ignorance. One company (alarm response) bans single action pistols, for example, on the basis that they're not safe. Another (Israeli) instructed me to carry with an empty chamber (I'll let you guess what I did).
If their personnel are so inept that they can't be trusted with tried & true equipment, more training is in order, instead of imposing unwarranted restrictions on all others. Especially at the level of EP.

In general, I do my best to work alone so the issue is irrelevant to me, but I'd consider investing in a given team's weapon/caliber combo for commonality's sake if joining a high-risk professional detail. I don't know anyone who operates that way, but it doesn't mean it's not being done. I suspect we are talking about that 1% there too.

As for the risk assessment/cost-benefit analysis you alluded to it's a huge issue and, frankly, the elephant in the room in private security and protective assignments. I'm not sure that two people see eye to eye on the subject, and few are even willing to be honest about it. But it's another topic entirely, as you said.