Body-armor

[mountainman]

I'm considering buying some body armor, from what Ive researched , level 2 is the minimum for decent protection, a few police supply company's have some good deals starting around 299 dollars for a level 2 , galls and streichers are the two company's that come to mind. My agency issues second chance-level 3 stab vests, there heavy and hot during warm weather im looking for something that's light , cool and will do the job any ideas?

[Local Talent]

You gotta have it, although it's rarely used in EP. And if worn, it better be discreet. I've mostly put it on when working in uniform, but I've had a few occasions to wear it under a suit too (clients had gun-nut stalkers).

My current one is also a cheap one from Galls, in the ballpark of what you describe.
It's kevlar, and so is one of the trauma plates (the other one is steel).
So I didn't break the bank and am covered for most of what we can face realistically. Steel can cause ricochets, but ceramic often protects for only one impact and is expensive, so again I compromise.

You can pay a lot more than $300-400, of course, but I don't think it's worth it. I know some could chime in and ask how much my life is worth, but then they'll drive cars made of plastic or carry mouse guns, so you get my point: we all have to make choices and live with them.

FWIW, the fancy (and expensive) new fibers supposed to blow kevlar out of the water may be light and thin, but have their issues and I'll wait for now. We do know that kevlar works, so if we can have that on the cheap, great.

Stab vests are probably more likely to be needed than bullet-resistant ones, IMO. But I wear the latter for range use and because they still provide protection against blunt force trauma and limited protection against blades. So they're a good all-around compromise, again IMO.

A level II is a good choice and conceals and wears well enough. Most people are floored to realize that I wear it. I think that level IIIa is overkill for most domestic jobs.

Now on hot days and if you're active, the vest will keep you toasty. The trick is in the undershirt. Still, that's why I only wear it on cool days or known high-risk gigs.

ETA: if you like to read... http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19912

[Lone Wolf]

LT you make a good point here, but Im going to disagree on the subject with you. Yes Level III is hotter than hell to wear trust me.. I wear one. I also have a level II as well that I seldom to never wear. Bottom line is that you never know what may be coming your way.. Large caliber handguns / long guns etc.. You should always be prepared.

Here is a major issue for me...

Florida has the highest mortality rate in the nation for security officers. There are a couple of reasons for this. One is the lack of training. While the State of Florida requires a minimum of 40 hours class room time most people here have little to no experience and often even less common sense (god I hate to use that term). I personally believe that being uncomfortable for 8-12 hours beats having additional holes in my body... Would a Level II work.. More than likely.. But you never know. I know that there are bullets out there that will blow through a level II and III like butter.. Ie the Ranger made by Winchester.. it is the exact same bullet that used to be called a black talon.. HMMMM Point being me personally, I always wear a vest in the field even on EP gigs.. and you are right.. It does need to be inconspicious...

I guess the way I look at it comfort for life..

[mountainman]

thanks guys, good info. im looking at the web-site you provided as we speak, some of those pics , are real scary.

[Local Talent]

No real disagreement, Wolf, just different approaches. :D

Level II will stop most if not all handgun calibers we're likely to encounter, and some 12 gauge rounds. The Ranger T is better than the old Black Talon, but it's just a very good round, not an armor piercing one. It doesn't do better than the other top LE rounds in FBI protocols. That "teflon-coated, propeller-shaped" miracle bullet was only hype from the media and anti-gun doctors back 15 years ago.

Now we, the good guys, are constantly looking for that perfect round and caliber, but your typical criminal element uses whatever is available from street sources, and it's usually a total crapshoot, often cheap weapons and FMJ rounds of small caliber, easily found and concealed.
Of course it's not a certainty, and you may run into some guys with rifles or high velocity, AP rounds, but then even level III might come up short. And what if they prepare the attack well and train for headshots? Is your vehicle armored? Do you make your client wear BA? What if your attacker has a blade instead of a gun?
Know what I mean? There's always someone more "prepared" than you out there. You have to make educated decisions, know the limitations of your choices and be ready to compensate for them.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that of all these security folks killed or injured on the job, very, very few were victims of rounds that defeated their armor. A lot have little training, as you said, and even less motivation and situational alertness. Some guns are obtained by criminals walking up to officers and disarming them! It shouldn't happen, and no vest is going to prevent someone from shooting a sleepy guy in the back of the head.

The way I look at it is: you have to strike a balance and it's a personal one. It depends on your area and job threat level (admittedly, only a statistical and subjective assessment), your financial resources, and your physical abilities and training. Not two guys are the same even within a given agency.

If you're able to stand a level III every day for 12 hours, and keeping it concealed, in hot and humid Florida, man, my hat's off to ya, BTW! :cool: Personally, I know that with the fatigue and discomfort incurred, my alterness will go down, and so will my ability to do the job... and survive. But everyone is different and has to make their own call.
Hopefully, for those starting out, discussions like these help make more informed decisions - I never mean to tell people what it is, just present one point of view. And I thank you for participating again, Wolf, because I wish more members would offer counterpoints to my one-sided ramblings here... :D

[mountainman]

I'm leaning towards the first choice catalyst 3A, its both spike and ballistic rated and supposedly very light for a level 3, the panels are woven ARAMID. Quartermaster has them for $399, im thinking this is a fair price. ill post again when i get it , and let ya know what i think.

[Local Talent]

mountainman, you may want to check out Galls' similar Point Blank vest: http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=BP449.
Available in different colors, lengths and with front and back carrier pockets for plates. It complies with the latest NIJ standards. Same level and price as QM's.
I like First Choice's single adjustment straps, but otherwise it looks like a cheaper product - for the same price. My experience with Galls has been hit and miss, though (they've screwed up orders).

Whichever way you go, please check back in. :)

ETA: just caught another vest in the same price range, the GH-PRO from Quartermaster ($399 in Aramid), similar to the one you looked at, but that one satisfies the latest NIJ testing . Don't know how stab-resistant the two I found really are.
All those are available in modern fibers (Twaron, Goldflex, etc.), i.e. thinner and lighter, but for more than $300 more, BTW. I'd stick with the proven Kevlar, but am wondering how concealable and comfortable a level IIIa can be so please let us know if you go that route. Other members feel free to chime in too.

[Lone Wolf]

Just FYI also they make a level IIIA vest that was designed specifically for people here in FL.. It is very expensive but it is also very comfortable from what i have been told.. I dont own it I cant afford it... WAY out of my price range at this time.. .But... There are always other options out there.. As far as being stab / cut resistand.. some are some arent ive had really good luck with the vests that I have bought and worn.. Especially when it comes to the bullet part.. Ill explain that one some other time maybe.. Bottom line is LT makes a very good point.. I know personally when I train I always triple tap.. Two the the chest one between the running lights.. WHY??? The very reason LT Pointed out.. Especially when it comes to carrying only a 9mm. We have not been given the grace of GOD to carry anything larger than a 9 so far, HOWEVER according to State of Florida sources that should change either later this year or early next year.. Then we will be able to bulk up our firepower.. Here we are allowed to carry a 12 Ga though with special permission from the state. SO..... Anyway I love these good debates and LT does bring up some very good points as well.. .

To me though life today is like being a Boyscout.. ALWAYS and I DO MEAN ALWAYS BE PREPARED... and yes there is always someone out there better prepared than you are... so BEWARE as well...