Israeli Combat Shooting

[black knife]

Anybody here trained in Israeli Combat Shooting. I will be taking a Instructors Course here real soon and wanted to get some feedback.

I have always felt that point shooting was perfect for shooting distances from 1 to 9 ft. :machinegunner:

[Local Talent]

I'm too tired to come up with something original, so forgive me if I "steal" from myself (posts on another forum):

"Overrated and not appropriate to the U.S. environment. It's like training with Klingons. "Israeli carry" was put together long ago, to give reasonable proficiency to non-dedicated conscripts using older weapons from hodgepodge arsenals."

"I hope I didn't hurt any feelings, as past a certain level, everybody kicks butt regardless of equipment or technique quirks. It's all in how dedicated you are to the doctrine. Let me just say that the guys I trained with were obviously just riding the 'mystique'."

"The roll in the video gave me a good chuckle since I did one myself by accident... I was going through the end of the combat course for the last time, weapon empty, and was running past the already engaged targets to show clear. I was tired and slipped on gravel. Instead of recovering and bumping into the instructor (who was crowding me), I tucked my locked back 1911, rolled on my shoulder, and kept on running to the finish fully expecting a reprimand. Instead, I got a pat on the shoulder and high-fives. Now I know why."

"[...] they advocated the "coup de grace" on a downed adversary and taught headshots to avoid hitting the explosives on a potential suicide bomber. They also punched or kicked the paper targets as they passed them. And their photographer thought nothing of positioning himself downrange ("We do it all the time!"). I called them out on the total lack of trigger finger control and got nothing but blank stares: a corollary of condition 3 carry, I guess."

"If you're a highly trained IDF operator, more power to ya, as long as you realize the differences in political and legal environments. If you're just interested in another tool in the box, [...] I'd personally advise to pass. Too many bad habits to pick up. Plenty of varied and high level domestic training to sample."

I wrote this a while ago, but stand by my statements. I'll say, though, that the Israelis are very present in LA, and very aggressive in promoting themselves so there's a chance you might work for them, and a course could be a good "primer".

As for the bizarre way they draw and point, it isn't point shooting, IMO. I did take a one-on-one point shooting class (not israeli, that one) and it was interesting, but my take on this is that point shooting takes a LOT of practice to master, kinda like shooting aspirin tablets, you know? If I don't use the sights, I'll body-index, which is "cheating". Because true point shooting is rare and should be reserved for contact or near-contact range, IMVHO, and you're then unlikely to miss anyway.

Thank God it was company-mandated "training" for me because I would have regretted paying for that education. YMMV... :D

[black knife]

Yeah I asked the guy the that is doing the training about the drawing and racking a round in the chamber and he stated that the Israeli method of of not keeping a round in the chamber was in case you get your gun taken away the bad guy would not be able to shoot you with it. Well I don't plan on getting my gun taken away so that method I can do without.

Yeah I am taken the course just to have some other means of training. I know there is a lot of Israelis working E.P. in L.A. My buddy works for one and the company gets a lot of work in L.A. and Vegas. He is going to introduce him to me and maybe get some work. I have learned a long time ago it is not what you know but who you know.

[Local Talent]

You're right, they're omnipresent and if you can get work through them, why not?

The empty chamber, or condition 3 carry, no matter how people rationalize or justify it, was really implemented sometime after WWII when the IDF were put together, BTW. The weapons available then were an assortment of whatever they could scrounge, and the only way to make little-trained citizens carry safely and get consistent training... was to make them carry in condition 3 (that's why they have little use for safeties and let their finger wander on the trigger, even during malf clearing :eek:). That's actually SOP in military forces all over the world, it's not an Israeli thing.
Their operators just follow tradition and develop ways to get around this mode, then justify it after the fact.
What I'm saying is that it's not appropriate or necessary for the US and/or civilians whose handguns are their primary and deployed in a defensive manner. Here we like 'em hot. ;)

Be prepared to grind your teeth while they repeat that they are the best, that unsafe practices are "how we do it", and that US instructors are just a bunch of "rednecks" out to take your money (not making any of this up).
I do think that all of us should be exposed to this doctrine, at least once.

ETA: In the interest of fairness... I'm aware of high-level Israeli operatives of international caliber. In the end, where you come from doesn't matter - what does is your dedication and skill level. The guys I've met, trained with, and worked for in LA just fit the mold described here: http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345&highlight=israeli. But we all know it's not good to stereotype.

[Local Talent]

I'm bored and re-reading old posts here (all please feel free to participate!).
I was talking about a video in my above quotes. Here it is for those interested in israeli training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdZ3hZ8y-w&feature=related.

To his credit, the instructor in that vid actually shows good trigger finger discipline and does not (unlike mine) kick his student in the legs or shove him as he's holding a hot weapon (:eek:).
You'll still notice the absence of holsters (is this israeli or mexican carry?!), the unnecessary roll reminiscent of russian acrobatics (Spetsnaz backflip, anyone?), and the generally amateurish feel of the whole thing.

The bottom line is that tactics and doctrines are intricately linked to local threat levels, weapons preferences, liability factors, etc. (on top of military and police histories), and that it's therefore risky to turn to "experts" from other parts of the world to operate in one's particular area.
In the US, two-handed fire is favored because we (normally!) use large caliber handguns (remember Jack Weaver and Jeff Cooper?). And we just can't disregard safety concerns during training in our sue-happy environment.
Also, that empty-chamber draw requiring two hands to ready the weapon is simply not appropriate for agents operating alone: how do you know that your weak hand won't be disabled by a wound, or busy fighting off the attack, or holding your client down?
The dirty little secret of the israeli draw is that it was designed to keep "citizen soldiers" from shooting themselves in the foot. Professional gun toters can carry safely and more efficiently with one in the pipe, as thousands of US LE and security personnel clearly demonstrate daily .


Like I said, these guys are a part of our industry, and growing it seems (in my AO anyway), so it's good to be familiar with them. Especially when some clients want to discuss their merits. The fact that they even exist in their hyper-hostile middle-eastern environment is fascinating to many.

[black knife]

I think they are getting rid of the method of not carrying one in the pipe. I like the idea of the square stance and not using sights at close range, i.e. 3 to 10 ft. Anything past that distance sights should be used as well as cover.

I think it is a natural reaction to keep both eyes open during a life threating situation such as facing an armed opponent at such a close range. I see it this way....I would not attempt to try closing one of my eyes while a guy rushes me to throw a punch at my face. Why would I do it if a guy pulls out a gun an attempt to shoot me. That is why I like the idea of point shooting. However this has been a sticky topic for as long as I can remember. Point shooting vs. sights

[Local Talent]

[...] this has been a sticky topic for as long as I can remember. Point shooting vs. sights
You're right about that! And a topic that gets people all riled up, too. In reality though, when you examine things closely you realize that the disagreements are usually mostly about semantics.

I agree that at very close range there is no need for sighting. It's as simple as pointing the finger. What folks often can't settle on is exactly what is that range.
I personally like your assessment. IME, it is hard to miss a B27 at 10' from the retention position, for example.

Beyond that, even if we don't have the luxury to acquire the sights, the gun will at least be in our field of vision, so that it is used as a sighting instrument. As long as you can see it, the weapon's outline gives at least some clue about where you're gonna hit, at least as far as windage is concerned, which is the most important at close range (human targets tend to be higher than they are wide, right?).

Way before 20', I know I'm gonna do my best to at least put my front sight on target (in fact, when taking the class, I had to fight the tendancy to use the sights even at very close range).

So I think that sometimes people can argue about very personal views, like exactly when the sights will be used and to what extent. But real point shooting is hardly something done beyond spitting distance unless you're extensively trained for that.

Jerry Miculek, shooting here blindfolded, at 6:30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBAPEs5gaaM&feature=related...

And check out Bob Munden (bad video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYdkt7yIFLY&feature=PlayList&p=5E8D5F2CCD43768E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=30

Now in these guys' case, the entire body is the shooting platform and muscle memory is what allows the shooter to know where he's gonna hit every time. But as I said earlier, this is trick shooting that you can't hope to replicate after taking a class or two.

I believe that most people who claim to point shoot bring the gun at least to eye level, as that israeli guy does in the video from my previous post. Applegate and Cirillo did the same thing. To me, it's closer to flash sight picture and we're just splitting hairs at that point (pun intended).

I like the idea of the square stance [...]
Well, everybody is moving in that direction, it seems. Two valid reasons I see for it are:
1. if you're wearing armor, you're not exposing your relatively unprotected sides (armpits = direct way to the heart) to enemy fire,
2. as a protector, you should shield your client instead of reducing your profile.
The thing is, the extreme crouch favored by the Israelis somewhat negates that last goal. And their one-handed and isoceles shooting preferences could be different if they weren't overwhelmingly using 9mm. ;)
That Isoceles vs. Weaver is another one of those debates that gets fiery real quick on other forums, BTW...

black knife, I'd be very interested to hear from you after that class you're considering. And I wish others would offer their take too, because if I've thought long and hard about these matters and have some training, I'm far from an authority so I don't want to sound like the voice of this forum or something.
As we said, this is all hotly debated even among schools.

[Lone Wolf]

Who uses sights at 3-10 feet???? When I shoot, I always shoot both eyes open and still utilize the sights as well... Awesome concept since you still have a full range of view of your surroundings... I even shoot at 25 yards with both eyes open...

[Local Talent]

Thanks Wolf, I forgot that point: another vote here for both eyes open, absolutely.
As for the "no sights at point blank range" thing, yeah, it should go without saying, except that point shooting advocates always bring this up as if that proved that sights aren't necessary. Of course, if you shoot from inside the pocket there'll be no sight picture either, we all agree...

Hey, Wolf, what's the situation with israeli bodyguards in Florida? Latest "fashion accessory" over there too?

[Lone Wolf]

Thanks Wolf, I forgot that point: another vote here for both eyes open, absolutely.
As for the "no sights at point blank range" thing, yeah, it should go without saying, except that point shooting advocates always bring this up as if that proved that sights aren't necessary. Of course, if you shoot from inside the pocket there'll be no sight picture either, we all agree...

Hey, Wolf, what's the situation with israeli bodyguards in Florida? Latest "fashion accessory" over there too?

Nope we dont have many of them here to my knowledge.. Im kinda slowing down in the field and working more in the training aspect of life... IE security / Private Investigator training as well as firearms training... I completed the NRA LE Handgun / Shotgun a couple of months ago... Have to take a test from the State of Florida to get what we call a K license here. Soon we will be heading to Cali I hope.. Looks like its after mothers day this year but hey it is what it is...

[Local Talent]

Interesting, Wolf. I wonder if it's just an LA thing for some reason. I can tell you that the israeli companies I know seem to focus specifically on celebs, so that could be a clue right there.

Oh, and please do give your bro LT a friendly warning when you arrive in this neck of the woods, will ya (I like to know where all the gun nuts are...)? :D :cool: