Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit

[ALEX]

PHOENIX – Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

The measure takes effect 90 days after the current legislative session ends, which likely puts the effective date in July or August.

"I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well," Brewer, a Republican, said in a statement.

Alaska and Vermont now do not require permits to carry concealed weapons.

By eliminating the permit requirement, the Arizona legislation will allow people 21 or older to forego background checks and classes that are now required.

Supporters say the bill promotes constitutional rights and allows people to protect themselves from criminals, while critics worry it will lead to more shootings as people with less training have fewer restrictions on carrying weapons.

Some police officials are concerned the law will lead to more accidental gun discharges from people untrained in firearm safety, or that shooters in stressful situations will accidentally strike innocent bystanders with stray bullets.

"I know a lot of 21-year-olds; the maturity level is gravely concerning sometimes," said El Mirage Police Chief Mike Frazier, an Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police board member. "If you're going to be carrying a weapon you should know what the law is and how to use it."

However, the measure was supported by police unions representing rank-and-file officers, who said their best friend on the streets is a law-abiding citizen equipped to protect themselves or others.

The police chiefs group initially opposed the bill but then took a neutral stance after some provisions were changed at their request. Brewer's office also participated in negotiations on changes to the bill.

A Democratic leader, Rep. Kyrsten Sinema, of Phoenix, said the bill deprives law enforcement of a tool "to separate good guys from the bad guys." With a permit requirement, police encountering a person with a concealed gun but no permit had reason to suspect that person was not a law-abiding citizen, she said.

The Arizona Citizens Defense League, a gun-rights group that lobbied for passage of the "constitutional carry" bill, said gun owners foregoing permits still should get training. "The heaviest thing about wearing a firearm is the responsibility that comes with it," the group said.

Arizona's permissive gun laws gained national attention last year when a man openly carried a semiautomatic rifle to a Phoenix protest outside a speech by President Barack Obama.

Nearly all adults can already carry a weapon openly in Arizona, and supporters of looser laws argue that gun owners shouldn't face additional restrictions just because they want to hide the weapon.

Currently, carrying a hidden firearm without a permit is a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $2,500.

Forty-five other states require permits for hidden guns, and two states — Illinois and Wisconsin — prohibit them altogether.

Federal law requires anyone buying a gun from a licensed dealer to undergo a background check, but that requirement does not apply to sales by individuals who aren't dealers. Arizona's law won't change that.

Under the Arizona legislation, people carrying a concealed weapon will be required to tell a police officer that if asked, and the officer can temporarily take the weapon while communicating with the person.

More than 154,000 people have permits to carry a concealed weapon in Arizona.

The bill acted on by Brewer was the first attempt to lift the permit requirement to reach an Arizona governor's desk.

Brewer's predecessor, Democrat Janet Napolitano, in 2007 vetoed two related bills. One would have reduced penalties for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. The other would have allowed a person without a permit to carry a gun largely concealed as long as any part of it or its holster was visible.

Brewer in 2008 signed into law a bill allowing a person with a permit to take a gun into a restaurant or bar serving alcohol as long as the establishment doesn't prohibit it and the person isn't drinking alcohol. Napolitano vetoed a similar bill in 2005.

[Local Talent]

However, the measure was supported by police unions representing rank-and-file officers, who said their best friend on the streets is a law-abiding citizen equipped to protect themselves or others.
What... a refreshing point of view! This should be submitted to our friendly CA LEOs. ;)

Of course we all know that there's a lot more than public safety issues that goes into people's attitudes towards CCW rights. LE protectionism for EP jobs is one. The liberal nonsense prevalent in the urban areas of our state is another (people = sheep).

Now to be honest, I view the right to bear arms as just another right, and don't have a problem with authorities legislating it... to a point, and as long as they don't trample it!
Because gun people may, or may not, need governments to teach them how to properly and responsibly use and carry firearms, but the reality is that in our day and age not everybody is "gun people" anymore (not sure whether that was ever the case, BTW). So if we accept the need to obtain license and insurance to operate motor vehicles and exercize the basic right to get around freely... we should probably accept the same thing when it comes to guns.

Regardless, AZ letting its citizens carry whatever they want as long as it's concealed is a very welcome departure from the ever-increasing scrutiny/suspicion we're all under, and a turn in the direction of the Founding Fathers' ideal society - the opposite of the "nanny state" that's been shoved down our throats for too long.

"Badges? We don't got to show you no stinkin' badges!" :devil2: :cool:
http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=113

[Praetorian]

I would love to see this go well! This makes for one hell of a tough target selection for that jack-ass who thinks some old man or lady at an ATM is easy pray.

However, we all know the first incident will be all over the national news, so lets hope it's an honest citizen putting two in the chest of some low life in self defense. Arizona is looking better than California everyday! I wounder how the job market is.

Also, the president of GUNSITE, Buzz Mills is running for governor. Things are looking good for Arizona and firearms.

[Local Talent]

+1 for AZ > CA. I've looked at it before, but the EP market ain't there, unfortunately.

And as far as the "no permit required" thing to CCW is concerned, it's already being done in VT and AK, so we know it's not a big public safety issue. But those states are not CA, though. In our heavily populated and diverse urban areas full of road rage and racial tensions, I think it's another proposition we'd be looking at.
This being said, I do believe that an armed society is a polite society (and we sure could use some of that!), and I doubt that many would rush to get a gun even if packing concealed became legal. Once a sheep, always a sheep.

As for the lowlives that shouldn't be in the general population... either:
1. they are already packing since laws are meaningless to them, or
2. being caught in possession of a gun could help put them away for good (most are in prohibited classes).

[Lone Wolf]

I have never really been one for having a "license" to carry a firearm concealed.. My belief is that the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of the United States is my permit..


However... there are always pros and cons to these types of situations...

I totally agree with Ted Nuget..

YouTube- Texas Monthly Talks TED NUGENT

What do you guys think?

[Local Talent]

Glad someone else is joining in: this is a very important topic.

I completely agree with the Nuge, and as a libertarian and pro-RKBA guy I have a hard time dealing with any limitation on my right to protect myself. But as Wolf implies, it's not that simple.

On the one hand we see that crime rates have gone down in states that went shall-issue, and that those without permit requirement haven't turned into the wild west either (contrary to what the anti-gun lobby had predicted). And on the other hand, there's the reality of heavily populated urban areas with all that they entail (daily frictions - let's face it, we're all bracing for the next riots here in LA).

So I don't really know how I would feel if all of a sudden, everybody was potentially armed (yep, I realize that in our line of work we all consider anybody potentially armed already, but no CCW required would up the ante). The ones I know to be packing have been trained and licensed... and they're scary enough. :eek:

What makes me not so opposed to licensing is not so much the corresponding training (it would be too minimal to mean anything). It's the fact that getting a CCW, like getting a driver's license, is a rite of passage. You're being sanctioned by society and that tends to make people think twice and behave. Because what the Man gives, the Man can take away, of course.
Yes, that does make carrying, this basic inalienable right to self-preservation, a "privilege", just like driving. And I grind my teeth just thinking of that.

But in the end, tell you what, between guns or no guns, I definitely take the first proposition because I get paid to know in what world we live in.

And somehow I have the feeling that just like the Clinton years and their threats to gun rights (remember the AWB?) fueled the CCW movement throughout the various states, the Obama administration, after causing huge guns & ammo sales, could also be the impetus behind more pro-gun initiatives on the local levels. One can always hope.

[Lone Wolf]

I personally believe that the Obamanation that is currently in office will not lean toward Pro Gun just as he has not leaned toward pro life.. HOWEVER...
Based on POTUS current position it continues to fuel the much needed and wanted gun sales here in the US.. The current administration is trying to bring down civil rights and turn the country into nothing more than a socialist country much like Stalin and other great fanatics..

In case you cant tell Im not pro the current POTUS.. I didnt and would never vote for him.. he came from no where to take the highest position in this country because he sold his way into the office..

And then winning the Nobel Piece Prize.. PLEEEEEZZZEEEE
To me that is the second biggest farce in this world..

As a citizen of the US I respect the position.. I dont necessarily have to respect the person in it...

Let me ask a question(s) at this point:

1: Isnt Socialism / Communism what this country has been fighting against since its inception????

2: Where would this country be if the citizens just roll over and take it? (To me it seems that is what we are doing).

3: Since when does adding a 0 to the budget make things better?

4: How did we go from a National profit to being trillions of dollars in the hole?

Its kind of funny in a way a friend of mine many years ago before he passed away made a statement to me about this country... He said and I quote "This country is being run by educated idiots".

Anyway.. I know this was a bit off the topic so I digress at this time.. Thanks for letting me put in my .02

God I hate politics...

[Local Talent]

All this is only peripherally related to the OP, or actually the core of the issue, depending on how you look at it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Obama is any more pro-gun than Clinton. What I'm saying is that he is potentially such a gun-grabber that I wouldn't be surprised to see more laws like the one in AZ pop up under him, as a reaction. I think that Clinton, unwittingly, gave the pro-CCW movement a momentum it didn't have before.

As for Obama's Nobel, it was clearly a handout and a result of Europe wanting to thumb their noses at Bush (after the fact). They gave BHO their "stamp of approval", which, unbelievably, seems to matter to some in the US.

But flawed as it is, we still live in a democracy and make no mistake: those liberal nut-cases who run California were largely voted in office. We have the government that we deserve! I never forget it and this is what makes me so willingly accept a minimum of control. Because the folks I see in CA are so sheepish and ignorant of guns, and of most of what we take for granted (like responsibility and common sense) that treating them like children actually makes some sense.

Voltaire said long ago that a society of philosophers wouldn't need laws. Unfortunately I don't encounter too many in my state ("philosophers"... laws, we have plenty!). The average Californian (big city folks, anyway) is now very removed from the self-sufficient and hard-working ideal that our Founding Fathers had in mind.

Otherwise, I know what you mean about "educated idiots", Wolf, but I disagree. It does sound too much like that Goering quote: "Whenever I hear the word culture, I reach for my Browning!"
I think that if the conservative movement can survive, it will be by matching the left wit for wit. Otherwise we're doomed to be at the mercy of "eloquent" but vacuous hypocrites like Obama. Because we live in a democracy and debate is the basis for everything.

You know, I found myself in agreement with most of what GWB said during his presidency, and even how he said it (some of it was thrilling to me, frankly). But had he been a little more polished (and sounded "educated"), the left would have had a much harder time attacking his points.

[Lone Wolf]

Here in Florida people that are sheepish are referred to as SHEEPLE....

[Local Talent]

I'm familiar with the term from perusing gun forums, yes... :D In California, we just call them "people", though. :eek: :p

Ya know, I've been following this debate over this AZ CCW law for a while and on several boards now, and it usually turns to name-calling. If you agree to ANY kind of limitation, you're just another a commie for some.
In reality, very few of our rights aren't regulated in some way, when you think about it. And we can carry handguns, and keep rifles and shotguns in our trunks and homes all we want... we're still a long way from the intention of the 2nd. Go start a revolution when the G has infinitely superior firepower!
Taken to the extreme, we should have access to FA guns, rocket launchers, tanks, and nukes if the playing field was to remain level. But would that be reasonable? I don't have an answer.

So I thought my position (CCW permit = driver's license; no big deal) was reasonable, but I'm beginning to wonder now if I haven't, like others, been deprived of my rights for so long that I can't see clearly. Kinda like someone who grew up crawling on the ground with a boot planted firmly between his shoulder blades, gasping for air, and suddenly allowed to walk upright... That would probably be a bit much at first, but an improvement, no doubt. ;)

Driving through LA, it's easy to think that more guns isn't what we need ("a good rain" a la Travis Bickle, maybe?!). But that's probably an elitist feeling along the lines of "I'm the only one in the room professional enough..."
So the more I think about AZ, the more I think it's about time and a good trend for the others states to follow. I guess I never thought we'd ever turn the tide back on some gun rights. :)

[Lone Wolf]

I'm familiar with the term from perusing gun forums, yes... :D In California, we just call them "people", though. :eek: :p

Ya know, I've been following this debate over this AZ CCW law for a while and on several boards now, and it usually turns to name-calling. If you agree to ANY kind of limitation, you're just another a commie for some.
In reality, very few of our rights aren't regulated in some way, when you think about it. And we can carry handguns, and keep rifles and shotguns in our trunks and homes all we want... we're still a long way from the intention of the 2nd. Go start a revolution when the G has infinitely superior firepower!
Taken to the extreme, we should have access to FA guns, rocket launchers, tanks, and nukes if the playing field was to remain level. But would that be reasonable? I don't have an answer.

So I thought my position (CCW permit = driver's license; no big deal) was reasonable, but I'm beginning to wonder now if I haven't, like others, been deprived of my rights for so long that I can't see clearly. Kinda like someone who grew up crawling on the ground with a boot planted firmly between his shoulder blades, gasping for air, and suddenly allowed to walk upright... That would probably be a bit much at first, but an improvement, no doubt. ;)

Driving through LA, it's easy to think that more guns isn't what we need ("a good rain" a la Travis Bickle, maybe?!). But that's probably an elitist feeling along the lines of "I'm the only one in the room professional enough..."
So the more I think about AZ, the more I think it's about time and a good trend for the others states to follow. I guess I never thought we'd ever turn the tide back on some gun rights. :)

Excellent point of view...
Im not necessarily if favor of licensing either.. However... Recalling "BACK IN THE DAY"... I believe that people should have some sort of official training for them.. IE some form of NRA Firearms Safety class... Other than that.. I think that people should not necessarily need to have a license..

The other side of that opinion is that if there is not some sort of "regulation" meaning that people with mental problems can now also buy firearms.. Which could prossibly have a negative impact on concealed weapons ownership as well...

It also makes me wonder how they will the state ensure that felons wont be able to purchase firearms either.. Although I know its not really a problem.. Just find a private party that has one for sale.. Pay cash and Badda Bing.. Felon owns firearm...
Who knows maybe this is an end around manuver by the Anti-Gun fanatics in this country as well.. Who knows.. I think its a good thing though... IMO

[Local Talent]

Yes, and Virginia just passed a law requiring gun safety education in elementary schools. Just like driver's ed, that is sound legislation and a move in the right direction. I didn't think I'd see this happen anymore, what with all the anti-gun hysteria that has taken over the country in my lifetime.

Just like gun-grabbing administrations, terrorism may have a silver lining after all. It took 9/11 to make HR 218 finally turn into LEOSA after gathering dust for over a decade... Well it may be time for Americans to realize that an armed population is the first line of defense against mall and school shootings and other mass attacks Mumbai-style.

Wolf, your point about felons having access to guns is valid and that's one of the fears that the libs have been playing up for long, trying to close "gunshow loopholes" and stop private gun sales. But in the end, we know that laws don't prevent criminals to get guns (or commit crimes), they just make life more difficult for the ones who abide by them.
So come to think of it, we should be happy with NCIC checks at the time of purchase and should enforce harsh penalties when a firearm is used in the commission of a crime (for a change). Let's put the burden where it belongs. :)

I'm telling you, having never even visited states like AZ, an armed society is hard to imagine for a californian. Your average LA person is far, far from the spartan ideal...

[Lone Wolf]

Yes, and Virginia just passed a law requiring gun safety education in elementary schools. Just like driver's ed, that is sound legislation and a move in the right direction. I didn't think I'd see this happen anymore, what with all the anti-gun hysteria that has taken over the country in my lifetime.

Just like gun-grabbing administrations, terrorism may have a silver lining after all. It took 9/11 to make HR 218 finally turn into LEOSA after gathering dust for over a decade... Well it may be time for Americans to realize that an armed population is the first line of defense against mall and school shootings and other mass attacks Mumbai-style.

Wolf, your point about felons having access to guns is valid and that's one of the fears that the libs have been playing up for long, trying to close "gunshow loopholes" and stop private gun sales. But in the end, we know that laws don't prevent criminals to get guns (or commit crimes), they just make life more difficult for the ones who abide by them.
So come to think of it, we should be happy with NCIC checks at the time of purchase and should enforce harsh penalties when a firearm is used in the commission of a crime (for a change). Let's put the burden where it belongs. :)

I'm telling you, having never even visited states like AZ, an armed society is hard to imagine for a californian. Your average LA person is far, far from the spartan ideal...

Thats the issue as you indicated the "AVERAGE PERSON" what about the gangbangers that are there.. They are far from the "AVERAGE PERSON" and well you know as well as I do that the gangs in LA are horrible.. Me personally Ill take my chances.. Ill carry and hope that I dont get stopped or caught until... Oh wait.. I got accepted to the LE Academy out here and the county is paying for it.. WOOO HOOOO... So then it doesnt matter Ill be covered under HB218