who here loves advance work!

[TTS]

This is what my wife and I love to do! Its amazing how unassuming a married couple can be in any location!

[brobradh77]

We have a hard time just mowing the yard together.

[flash]

Advance work sounds exciting. Some times I find myself thinking about exit routs and where I would make an attack from.
I think that advance work would be very rewarding.
When you gather advance intelligence, you brief the team, then what position would you normally take on the team?
specifically, what kind of things would you look for while doing this kind of work? I would imagine, routs of exit, places for pick up, overwatch positions, check points...anything I'm neglecting? Thanks

[TTS]

In a nut shell, "EVERYTHING", because if the team experiences a fail then the adavance missed something. We check out everything we possibly can think of, the combination of male/female really helps in this category because believe me women will think of things that don't cross our mind as guys!

[flash]

Tell me about it!

[panjkraz]

Advance work is great! You have an opportunity to hone your skills that would mitigate Murphy's Law and provide safe ingress/egress of the asset. Although I did it as part of the class training scenario (EP), the PSD part (USMC days-15 years ago) was easier because your only goal was watching the colonel and that was it. Advance was done by 1 group or people would alternate infrequently or it was their main job!
Things are alot different today especially in a war zone!

[Local Talent]

When you gather advance intelligence, you brief the team, then what position would you normally take on the team?
The Advance Agent(s) reports to the Agent In Charge, who in turn makes plans and briefs the Team (and Principal) accordingly.
During the execution of the mission, the Advance Agent(s) reports to the venue ahead of the Team, gives the "all clear" via coms and assists with all parking/safety issues that could impede the Principal's arrival.
That's textbook and ideal.

In reality, it's rare to have the manpower and/or enough lead time to do more than mapquest the location before jumping in the car with the client...

They say "you live and die by your advance", so it's clearly critical. I can see why some would like it, but this is something I've delegated in the past. You have to be a schmoozer, able to extract valuable intel from valets, concierges, etc. without drawing attention or revealing details of your operation.

[Dykhofft]

In my last job we would double the days that the principle would be at the location and that would be our advance time. If the principle would be there one week we would be there two week prior. If you have done advanced work for a while and know the ends and outs you will be able to advance a one week trip in approx 4-5 days. This gave me more than enough time to relax and see the World.

[Local Talent]

Although it happens at a very high level, it is far from the rule in the civilian world that even one agent would be dispatched to a location in advance of the principal, expenses paid.
IME, even clients with a clue just expect us to come along and take care of pbs as they arise. Some Hollywood types actually enjoy leaving their security in the dark to watch them stumble, or tasking them with carrying luggage. Telling them that our hands are to remain free would NOT go over well...

Just a while back, a very well known tabloid-fodder celeb gave her bodyguard the slip in Vegas. He was described by the paps as frantically typing away on his Blackberry outside a hotel, wondering where his client might be...
And a limo driver once told me how he was instructed by my client (another young celeb) to LOSE the chase car. :rolleyes:

Different world. Even w/o talking about immature celebs, I invite you to read what happened on another detail in "Stories from the Field" (just remembered that one!).

[Lone Wolf]

To funny, thats why when I work a chase car I also plant a tracking device on the principals vehicle so I can always find the vehicle... Although Im not sure what the laws in Cali are about it tracking devices are a way to go.. As far as the Celebs slipping away from their bodyguards... Not a smart thing to do.. Just goes to show you that they dont need a body guard.. its all show and tell with alot of them.. Wait until they get jammed up and wish they hadnt of been so stupid as to try and slip away from their Body Guard..

AHHHHHHHHHH Tracking Devices and GPS two of the greatest inventions in history...

If you dont need them dont use them..

[Local Talent]

If you dont need them dont use them..
As a privacy freak, I'm opposed to them on principle, just like to all the good stuff we need on the job, like CCTV, metal detectors, micro-recorders, etc. Necessary evil is the way I see it. We play fair, we lose.
I'm even careful in public restrooms - you never know when some perv could have planted a cam there. Getting home to bolt the door, close the blinds, and take the battery out of the cell phone is one of modern life's few pleasures to me... :D

I actually don't know whether GPS tracking is legal w/o someone's consent in CA, and should look it up, that's a good point you brought up. I know that some celebs have those on their cars, a must since they lose their details so often...

[Lone Wolf]

They work very well, I bought mine for work here on domestic cases and branched it out to the EP world.. I figure if they dont know it wont kill em on the other hand if could kill em if I cant get to them or find them

[Zeami]

I started in travel security running Senior Class Trips to Boston and Cape Cod. The advance work, such as it was, was great. I'd take my Wife and kids for a week end. We'd get free rooms, meals and admission to all the attractions and I would negotiate rates for the year. Checking out routes was a different story. It seems like I95 was under construction from the George Washington Bridge to to the Big Dig in Boston. You never knew what was torn up from one day to the next.

[Lone Wolf]

If the client is important enough the advanced trip shouldnt be an issue... I am getting ready for a gig that is 3 months out right now and already starting to do the advanced work on it.. And yes the client pays the expenses as well... So they are out the money even if they decide not to come...

Let me make one thing very clear here... I DONT WORK FOR FREE....

[Local Talent]

Let me make one thing very clear here... I DONT WORK FOR FREE....
Ha! Ha! Lucky you...

Here's the way I look at it: if I take on a job, I'll do it right no matter what. I've had to pay for clients (some never have cash or a wallet), lend them my cell, drive them in my own car, or do prep work on my own time just so things would go smooth. It's an investment. Now if it turns out that people are simply taking advantage, and I can figure this out pretty quickly, I cut my losses and move on.

We have a lot of members simply considering getting into EP or wondering how to land their first gig, and I don't want them to think that it's going to be just like in the movies, with ultra-rich clients sparing no expense for their staff.

Forget clients, a lot of EP companies will expect you to share the burden...

I worked for one that would not pay for training. That's right, they would send new, very inexperienced agents to my account, and tell them to come by for a couple of (unpaid) hours to get a handle on things.
As the detail leader, and accountable to the client, what was I supposed to do? I'd tell the guys that they could come by the account for a quick meet, only if they wanted to since it wasn't fair to ask them to work for free, then would work with them (for free) during their first shift. That way, I could introduce them to people properly, take the time to train them, and get a good idea about how they were going to perform.
I did not raise a stink with the client as that would have been improper, and when I asked my boss if the guys could at least receive minimum wage during training, he nearly laughed at me, so I was the one ending up unpaid.
Now after being sent a bunch of idiots who never lasted long, and being turned down for my offers to pick agents myself, it became clear that the company cared a lot more about the bottom line than about its performance at the account. Needless to say I am no longer with them.

Another example: that robbery suppression job I just worked. The client (a major corporation) was too cheap to pay for full hourly coverage of its retail branches. Only one agent would be on site, during only part of the day, and on a fixed, predictable schedule: moronic.
Since I worked for a contractor, who worked for another, who worked for the company who had the contract, there was no way I was going to be allowed any input.
But I quickly realized, always early on the job, that opportunities abounded for smart criminals to gain entry before my arrival with cleaning crews, or taking advantage of early staff meetings.
Meanwhile I kept receiving reports of 211s (some attempted, some successful), going down at other branches in my general area. The threat was very real.
So... I made it a point to always be the first one on site, way before schedule, and spent quite a few off-duty hours parked in my car right in front of the location, stepping out to make myself seen everytime something wasn't right.
The location's staff knew and appreciated the dedication (they were shitting bricks), but I never told my boss - what would have been the point? The place never got hit and that's all that mattered to me.
Was that a lousy deal? Maybe, but it sure beat what I'm doing now (nothing).

LT sometimes works for free and is proud of it. :)

[Lone Wolf]

There are several different ways to look at this type of work.. Working for the type of companies that I have been working for, I understand what you are saying.. ALthough, there is another way to look at it as well.. If you were to intervene in an issue in your "off" time you could be held responsible for anything that happens.. While I agree it is better off to be around and not be needed, you are taking on a very large liability...

When I am working a contract for myself, I make the client think that they are getting the utmost for their money.. But I generally am able to work it so that I do get paid for the majority if not all of my time... I take a deposit in most cases of 3k and I tell the client that 500 is non refundable.. This is for my time... Now when I work for other companies thats another story, most of them have the same attitude that I have.. NO FREE WORK..

I mean I suppose there is a time and a place for that but the majority of the time, the clients dont really need a body guard either, on a majority of the contracts that I have worked, it was more imaginative that someone was after them rather than a significant threat.. NOT ALL THOUGH...

To those that really need it.. They are generally willing to pay for the majority of the expenses...

From my experience, the majority of the issues with pay is MARKETING... and making the client understand what it is exactly that they are getting for their money.. Alot of the contracts that I have worked, would have been adaquate with a Security Officer in a uniform rather than plain clothes undercover EP... This is one way that the client gets exactly what it is they they want... Protection....

[Local Talent]

Wolf, you bring up a great point. We're unfortunately completely OT, but I want to discuss it so I hope that others won't mind.

It comes up all the time in private security: what if something goes down while we're on site, but off the clock?

A lot of times, there will be last minute schedule changes that the company doesn't have time to approve, if the relief is late and we have to hold over, for ex. Or if a fellow agent/officer requests a shift switch while the company's office is closed. So we end up working while not officially on the schedule.

This is one reason why companies always want to approve schedule changes ahead of time. The real reasons are mostly about office politics, control, and overtime issues, because the companies that don't pay OT don't seem to care at all about who's working as long as somebody's at the wheel...
I know I've worked for a lot of bosses who didn't want to be bothered about those changes, they'd just want us to submit the hours we worked after the fact.

And think about it, if employers were concerned about, say, insurance investigators asking whether security personnel were really on duty when they got injured or shot somebody, they wouldn't have us work double or even triple shifts when necessary. Go explain that your guy had been up for 20 hours when he wrecked the client's car or killed somebody...

But frankly, I've never heard of the issue being brought up. It may be because accidents are in fact so rare, I dunno.
It seems possible in theory that the question could arise in court, but I have a hard time believing that it would go further than confirming that we work for a given company/client.
If others know different, I hope they'll chime in.

Look, here's the way I look at it, and I know that some may object to that: I get the job done first. Forget labor laws, possible worker's comp claims, or official schedules.
The chances that something bad will go down, and then that the schedule question will arise later are much smaller than those of upsetting/inconveniencing/endangering the client or even losing the account.

If I'm a supervisor and can explain that I was stopping by the account on my day off to check on things, I don't know how that could come back to bite me. And if I'm off duty but happen to be "taking a break" across the street when I spot a 211 about to go down, then decide to take actions that any good citizen would, I'm not sure how I could be faulted either.

The liability issue you mentioned is a BIG one. But again, my personal take is that IF my actions are legal and reasonable, then I can't worry too much about the rest, otherwise I'd do something else.
I have to add that if I'm used to "working for free" or going the extra mile, this is NOT something I ask from anyone else when in charge.

And as I said, if having to work for free or take unnecessary chances turn into a regular thing, I eventually leave that assignment because it then shows that people are users and/or bad managers.

You mentioned having your own clients. I've only subcontracted so far and haven't had my own contracts yet. But it's clear that those situations (potential OT, last minute extra-coverage, etc.) should be laid out in writing after discussion with the client.
A lot of time, the only intel we have when working for a company is unfortunately hearsay (they want us to know as little as possible re: agreements they have with the client). So we either consult with a supervisor/boss before making any little decision... or we take our (calculated) chances.

[Lone Wolf]

You bring up very good points.. And you are technically correct... Im playing devils advocate here... While I indicated that I dont work for free I really dont.. I have been in the situation that you are talking about where a person relieving me doesnt show up because he / she is sick and so forth, they call off at the last minute... Do you contact the company on days they are closed.. NO.. As far as OT goes.. WHATS THAT???? I never get paid OT for ANY WORK I DO either.. I make sure that if it is a job that I am working "paid for by the client directly" they I make sure to cover such issues on my own..
Here in Fl you can work contracts WITHOUT an agency as long as you are on the clients payroll.. My take on the above scenario is that I work over I follow up on the next work day for the company and then work out time off to cover what I did in excess.. Hence.. Not working for free.. Working for companies really bites but it is a necessary evil the majority of the time unless you are fortunate to get into an INHOUSE position.. Your name is like gold in this business.. Your reputation is everything.. You have to do what ever it takes to make the client happy..

I have worked for clients that regardless of what you do for them they are never happy... One of the last clients that I worked for (through an agency) was way up the food chain on the Forbes list.. He and his family were basically very low profile no one really knows who he is but he is a billionaire... He and his family for the most point are rude crude and very much unhappy.. It doesnt matter what you do for them they are never happy... They recently made the paper a while back for being one of the hardest family in the world to work for.. Does that tell you anything?

The bottom line on this is when you have enough then its time to walk away.. The Director of Security gave me a killer reference when I left and I didnt evem think about asking for it.. I worked for this family for a little over a year and to say the least it was not pleasant.. The only truly good times were when the client and his family were gone...

[panjkraz]

Estate Security is a good position if you are dealing with professionals meanig everyone knows their duties and each learning about the other's is good.

You do not always need training from the sponsor (hiring authority) but the inexperienced does need it and some sponsors prefer to use that revenue as profit instead of investing in training and they are surprised when you leave them! They are truly clueless.
The better places for employment seems to be east coast, then west then south. Midwest is flat from my experience but I also see where if you get good placement, it is few and far between.

I recently sent out a few CVs for supposedly "High End positions" but they never responded. It seems that the "High end" inducement works only for their benefit of collecting resumes and selling 'paper bodies' to get a specific contract so beware.
If anyone get a chance, check out the site of the 'Zen Traveller'. a former Army veteran who gives his own philosophical jab at the industry and some hints for reality checks.
semper fi

[Local Talent]

Hey there, panjkraz , long time no see!

Estate Security is a good position if you are dealing with professionals meanig everyone knows their duties and each learning about the other's is good.
Yeah, aside from static jobs like that, we often encounter other agents for a brief period of time and work next to them without any clue about what they can and/or will do.

The better places for employment seems to be east coast, then west then south. Midwest is flat from my experience but I also see where if you get good placement, it is few and far between.
Yeah, again. It's best to start out on the coasts where companies and clients abound, so one can get jobs and gain experience quickly. Once the resume is solid, jobs can come up pretty much everywhere in the country.
I don't think I'd take the chance to start negotiations with a client in the middle of nowhere, however, what with the interview process and relocation needed, unless I was referred by another known agent and the money was very attractive.
I don't like L.A. so much, but I know this AO well and it's pretty active. Same goes for the East Coast, Vegas, and some of FL, I hear.

I recently sent out a few CVs for supposedly "High End positions" but they never responded. It seems that the "High end" inducement works only for their benefit of collecting resumes and selling 'paper bodies' to get a specific contract so beware.
You're right, I should have mentioned that in my thread here: http://www.socalbodyguards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230.
At least, there's no real scam beyond raising false hopes. I hate sending out my info to complete stangers and anonymous folks in part because of this.
Some "training" companies also advertise heavily in job listings and dangle the possibility of future assignments in front of unsuspecting and naive newbies. They're often just looking for suckers to sell their courses to... :mad:

[Local Talent]

As far as OT goes.. WHATS THAT???? I never get paid OT for ANY WORK I DO either.. I make sure that if it is a job that I am working "paid for by the client directly" they I make sure to cover such issues on my own..
Here in Fl you can work contracts WITHOUT an agency as long as you are on the clients payroll..
I suspected that some of our differences of opinion were "regional". CA is a liberal state, as you know, with heavy regulation and strict labor laws. That impacts us a lot.

It is not possible to offer your services here without being a company owner, with the licensing and insurance that go with it. Not overly difficult to get, but a lot of agents prefer to work for someone else who's a licensee. Can be a huge outfit like DeBecker or a small company run out of a P.O. box.

Whether big or small, companies have to comply with the law (in theory anyway). And overtime and doubletime issues quickly get in the way of scheduling! The client, OTOH, usually pays a flat rate and scheduling/money issues aren't his/her pb.

So that when running a detail for a "cheap" company, you can end up between a rock (the demands of the client) and a hard place (scheduling nightmares). If you were to ask the guys who worked under me, they'd tell you that LT was always the one screwed: I'd work doubleshifts, or night and day, or "for free" in order to maintain coverage, not put my agents in the situation of being shorted themselves, and keep the boss off my back.
I'm ripe for working for myself, I tell ya. But my point is that sometimes you just do what you gotta do because of rule # 1 here:
Your name is like gold in this business.. Your reputation is everything.. You have to do what ever it takes to make the client happy..

The only truly good times were when the client and his family were gone...
Amen!

[Lone Wolf]

We will have to talk more.. I am opening an agency in Fl and have been talking to a friend of mine that lives in Cali as well about opening an agency there as well..

My question is who gets the majority of the EP work? Security or PI agencies?

I see your point in this issue now.. Again you do what you have to do... Most of the time it is the Agents that get it in the end... Screwed that is.. Having a Supervisor that takes care of his guys says alot about character.. You dont see that here.. Out here it is every man for themselves... Supervisors will lie their asses off just so they can keep their jobs and will hang people out to dry at the drop of a hat...

I anticipate working out there soon.. I will be in Cali in mid January 2010. What I think they call or used to call North Hollywood area..

[Local Talent]

My question is who gets the majority of the EP work? Security or PI agencies?
I can't presume to know everything, but IME, it's security companies hands down.
Because a PI can provide protection to one particular client, while a PPO can have as many contracts as he can handle and employ agents to man the hours.
In most cases companies employ agents under their PPO, then also hold a PI license as well to do investigative work for their clients.
There's a bunch of guard companies in L.A. "offering" EP or PI services. Most are simply attempting to branch out and have little work and even less of a clue.
Then you have dedicated EP companies that don't touch uniform work, but they're rare.
Most PPOs offer both EP and guard services, with anything in between.

I remember one detail where the client had been referred to an EP co. by his own attorney/PI. The investigator would run checks on every agent who came on the detail, but the PPO was their employer.

Since all you need to bodyguard in CA is a guard card to be an agent, or a PPO to procure EP agents, that's what most guys get.

Most of the time it is the Agents that get it in the end... Screwed that is.. Having a Supervisor that takes care of his guys says alot about character.. You dont see that here.. Out here it is every man for themselves... Supervisors will lie their asses off just so they can keep their jobs and will hang people out to dry at the drop of a hat...
A big +1 to that! We all know what rolls downhill and that security personnel are often only posted somewhere to take the fall when something goes wrong.
I've been in this racket for so long and have been shafted by companies and supes so many times, that when I'm the one in charge I just can't screw my guys (ya know, monopolize the OT, hog the spotlight, take credit for everything and responsibility for nothing... ugh...).

[Lone Wolf]

We will have to make contact together when I get there.. I hope that I am able to attain a job at least part time when I am there.. I dont understand why Security companies think that they can do adaquate EP work for the life of me.. Not like most of them have any experience in the industry...

Here in Fl you can do EP work either as a SO or a PI... and again you have the same results... Companies underbidding each other to get that "sweet contract" or just not knowing what they are doing plain and simple... Its very interesting really..

Like I said I was contacted by a friend of mine that owns a security company and he was picking my brain as to what he should charge per hour... and what type of equipment we would need.. I gave him a brief over view of what I thought he might need and explained to him that it was just the basics.. I also told him that he needs to get as much detail as he can.. I have a high degree of suspicion that he is going to end up getting screwed in this deal because I dont think he realizes what it is exactly he needs.. I tried to explain to him about OT and things like that.. he was like Oh well they (the client) has their own staff, and they will provide relief to us in the night hours.. I tried to explain to him that it doesnt matter when they provide relief, if we are on a boat or in a helo with the client they arent going to turn the boat or helo around just because we are supposed to get off at a set time... Man.. I told him I would work the contract with him but he was going to have to pay me big money to do it..

He is looking at paying $30/hr per man. I was like if this guy is high profile that was way to low for what he was thinking..

What are the gigs out in Cali Paying for high threat work?

[Local Talent]

I dont understand why Security companies think that they can do adaquate EP work for the life of me.. Not like most of them have any experience in the industry...
I'm sure you know. If they don't have any agents available when they get the contract, they just place an ad. The urban centers have so many off-duty and retired cops that you have a pool of "agents" right there to tap into (as long as they have BSIS licensing)...
Some have little to no protective work training/experience, but you know how it goes. Still better than security guards in monkey suits (happens a lot too). Window-dressing for most gigs.

As for the rest of your post, some answers could be seen as industry secrets even w/o naming names. Please check your PM instead, Wolf.

The labor issues are the main reason why I haven't made the jump myself, BTW. I think a lot of guys have a very cavalier attitude toward them. That's how you end up hired to start on a detail yesterday so often... (Well, there's that and the endemic turn-over and/or rough work conditions.)

[Lone Wolf]

Yeah I know.. Alot of the time they dont have Agents all they have are security guards / officers... I have been working on some short term contract stuff here in FL and it is going crazy

[SonnyPI]

This is illegal in California under PC637.7 unless authorized by registered owner.

637.7. (a) No person or entity in this state shall use an
electronic tracking device to determine the location or movement of a
person.
(b) This section shall not apply when the registered owner,
lessor, or lessee of a vehicle has consented to the use of the
electronic tracking device with respect to that vehicle.
(c) This section shall not apply to the lawful use of an
electronic tracking device by a law enforcement agency.
(d) As used in this section, "electronic tracking device" means
any device attached to a vehicle or other movable thing that reveals
its location or movement by the transmission of electronic signals.
(e) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
(f) A violation of this section by a person, business, firm,
company, association, partnership, or corporation licensed under
Division 3 (commencing with Section 5000) of the Business and
Professions Code shall constitute grounds for revocation of the
license issued to that person, business, firm, company, association,
partnership, or corporation, pursuant to the provisions that provide
for the revocation of the license as set forth in Division 3
(commencing with Section 5000) of the Business and Professions Code.


Cordially, Sonny

[Local Talent]

Ah, excellent! Having a PI on tap here is going to be a valuable resource to keep the speculations to a minimum. :)

I figured as much. The one time my detail used GPS tracking was on our clients' vehicles, by their request, and it allowed the chase cars to catch up when they got lost.

[caprotection]

I love advance work.I'm Working on a detail now. It gets my brain going. After seein what works and what doesn't I start thinking about everything that can happen.